Recommend a new cart
Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: Turntable Audio
Forum Name: MM: Moving Magnet | MC: Moving Coil
Forum Description: Learn about the differences between moving magnet and moving coil cartridges here
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2851
Printed Date: 27 Mar 2026 at 4:28am Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Recommend a new cart
Posted By: Paul H
Subject: Recommend a new cart
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2016 at 10:14am
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I'm musing on taking advantage of my wife's present goodwill towards me spending money on my system and upgrading my cartridge. You can see my system in my signature below.
Basically, I'm finding my 2M Blue to be a touch too splashy and shrill in the top end, and I'm looking for something a little smoother. I like the detail though.
Basically, I wonder what your thoughts are about putting, say, a £500 cart on a £500 table. The tonearm is carbon fibre and, from what I can gather, is actually a pretty good 'un that can fight above its weight. I know a few reviewers have put some pretty high end carts on it and been impressed but I can't help wonder whether a good cart would a) reveal the flaws in the table and/or, b) not perform to it's value (if you know what I mean).
Carts I'm looking at include
Ortofon 2M Bronze Ortofon 2M Black Ortofon Quintet Bronze Dynavector 10x5
Thoughts? Advice?
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Replies:
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2016 at 11:53am
A lot of the wisdom from the late 70s and early 80s was to focus on deck and arm rather than cartridge a view more recently echoed by M baker at origin live.
I have not followed this rule for various reasons so no personally I cannot see a particular issue in spending more on the cartridge if desired - yes they do wear out eventually and are delicate and likely to be limited by arm and deck & phono stage of course but perhaps proper match between devices is key. Matching of course will cover matching sound parameters plus mechanical aspects re effective mass and resonances which others can explain far better than I.
I am not sure where you live but listening to cartridges can be tricky unless you have a good dealer. I used h fi sound in Stockton to audition 3 or 5 phono stages which is where my Graham slee adventure started. The progressed to 5 cartridges and then two arms. Bought GSP and cartridge.
Richard
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2016 at 12:56pm
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I'm in Nottingham. Richer Sounds has been fabulous in allowing me as much time as I want to listen in their room but I've found that it didn't really help me determine how things would sound in my own room.
Their store is more dedicated to AV than dedicated hi-fi (that's not to say that they don't know anything or won't help) but I don't think they'd have the range of cartridges in store to be able to set two or three up for a listening session. Of course, I could just ask them :)
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2016 at 2:00pm
Has Jon responded to your loan request yet?
------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps
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Posted By: DaveG
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2016 at 2:03pm
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The Quintet Bronze is a low output MC cart, so would require a dedicated MC phono stage, or a step up device.
I agree with Richard - My experience is you can put a better cart on a TT & reap benefits. OL make tonearms & TT's so it's perhaps understandable why they have the opinion they do. I like Ortofon's personally and the Black has a good rep. I've not heard it myself but I know others here have. The 9cc carbon is a pretty good low mass tonearm (probably best with a cart that has a bit of mass itself). I have the old version on my other deck and had no problems mating it with an Ortofon Kontrapunkt Blue which was quite a high end cart or a Quintet Black that's on it now. Your arm is a step up from that I'd guess.
Main thing is to get your phono stage sorted 1st I reckon... you never know it may knock off some of the perceived harshness off the Blue.
------------- Dave
Michell Gorbe + HR PSU -> Cadenza Bronze -> SME V -> Elevator -> Accession -> Proprius -> B&W CM6 s2 | Cusat 50 & Spatia cables ->
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2016 at 2:40pm
Graham Slee wrote:
Has Jon responded to your loan request yet?
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No, afraid not. He's obviously got other things to take care of.
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2016 at 2:43pm
DaveG wrote:
The Quintet Bronze is a low output MC cart, so would require a dedicated MC phono stage, or a step up device.
I agree with Richard - My experience is you can put a better cart on a TT & reap benefits. OL make tonearms & TT's so it's perhaps understandable why they have the opinion they do. I like Ortofon's personally and the Black has a good rep. I've not heard it myself but I know others here have. The 9cc carbon is a pretty good low mass tonearm (probably best with a cart that has a bit of mass itself). I have the old version on my other deck and had no problems mating it with an Ortofon Kontrapunkt Blue which was quite a high end cart or a Quintet Black that's on it now. Your arm is a step up from that I'd guess.
Main thing is to get your phono stage sorted 1st I reckon... you never know it may knock off some of the perceived harshness off the Blue. |
Thanks for the input, much appreciated. And yes, I want to sort the phono stage first. If that can cure the harshness it may negate the need for a cart upgrade. I'm trying not to get carried away with upgraditis :)
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2016 at 2:47pm
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Recommending a cartridge is always tricky since what works well in one system might not be so good in another . . . but FWIW here's my thoughts ..
A £500 cartridge on a £500 turntable is certainly not a bad idea if the arm is up to it. Even if a better arm would extract more performance from the cartridge it would still be worth it as it would give you an upgrade path. I've turntables with detachable headshells and I'm a sucker for swapping carts - now at any rate; when I ran a GyroSE with a Tecnoarm I stuck resolutely with a Goldring 1042 was very happy with it. Incidentally, that's one cart you could add to your list. It worked very well with the Era Gold V . .
The Quintet Bronze you mention is a low-output MC so would need an MC phono stage or something like an Elevator EXP if used with a MM stage. I've older Ortofon MCs which are very nice (a Vivo Red and Rondo Blue).
The new line of Hana MC carts have high output versions (EH and SH). I've a low output elliptical (EL) model and I really like it - I wish I'd got the Shibata tipped version really (SL) but I got mine before any reviews or user reports were around. The range has got good reviews.
Trying to hear a cart before you buy is almost impossible, and you need to hear it in your system anyway to get a proper impression of it; and new carts nearly always need running in for a bit to give of their best anyway. So in my experience it's all a bit of lottery - which doesn't really help, I know!
------------- Bob
Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2016 at 3:19pm
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Fabulous post, Bob. Thank you. Some real food for thought. I hadn't picked up on the Quintet being low output. Doesn't rule it out but makes it a bigger gamble in terms of amp.
Not heard of Hana before: I'll have a look.
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2016 at 3:41pm
Here's http://hifipig.com/hana-s-range-moving-coil-cartridges/%20 - one review of the Hana SL/SH, and http://www.the-ear.net/review-hardware/hana-eh-and-sl-moving-coil-cartridges - another one . . .
------------- Bob
Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links
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Posted By: RichW
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2016 at 4:15pm
Hi Paul, without wishing to bombard you with too many cartridge options, another needle to look at is the Audio Note IQ1 mm at around £300. Its removable stylus can be upgraded to IQ2 or IQ3 if the upgrade bug ever bites. It's based on the Goldring 1042 but with a few modifications. Superb tracking ability & sound. Good luck.
------------- Majestic/Enigma, Accession MM & MC.
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Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2016 at 7:19pm
I agree I would sort the phono stage first then the cartridge. As advised the Stockton dealer mentioned is a great day out and can demo GSP and various run in cartridges.
Richard
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Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2016 at 9:52pm
Paul H wrote:
Graham Slee wrote:
Has Jon responded to your loan request yet?
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No, afraid not. He's obviously got other things to take care of.
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That'll be his day job...
Got an email from him earlier saying he'll have more time this weekend.
------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps
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Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2016 at 6:40am
For the new cart, I was going to suggest the Hana SH but I see that Bob has already done that. If you want a replaceable stylus, then one of the following would probably be worth an audition.
Nagaoka MP500 Audio Technica AT150SA Ortofon 2M Black Audio Note IQ 1, 2 or 3 depending on how much you want to spend. As a cheap, good sounding alternative there is also the AT95SA. Remarkably good for the money. I used to run a 2M Black most of the time, but have recently switched to a Shure M55E with a Jico SAS stylus. It's a lot loss analytical than the 2M Black.
Other suggestions in the HOMC world would be
SAE1000LT ZYX R-50H Bloom
------------- Kevin European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France. Funkified SL1200 Mk.II, BB3, Firebottle Kin , ADI-2 DAC FS, Modulus 686, PD-S703, Solo UL, Triangle Antal EZ
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Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2016 at 8:19am
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A great shame that Jico have discontinued their SAS stylus. . . .It's been the saviour of many a cartridge. I use one on a Technics p-mount P22
But a big thumbs up for the SAE carts  - NOS from Thakker in Germany.
The Zyx R-50 Bloom carts get a http://thetomtomclub.ning.com/profiles/blogs/zyx-r50-bloom - good press too, though even the H model needs an MC stage since it's output is only 0.48mV. It's only "high" in relation to the "low" output version . . 
------------- Bob
Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2016 at 8:25am
I was just thinking the same thing. I'd been musing on checking out the Shure M97XE with that stylus just as they announced it was discontinued and prices rocketed.
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2016 at 12:00pm
I'm struggling to find any info on the Hana carts. I've found their webpage but it doesn't provide much info (prices, compliance, that sort of thing). Anyone have a link?
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: DaveG
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2016 at 12:10pm
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This page has a link to UK dealers Paul
http://www.airaudio.co.uk/dealers/?brand=hana - http://www.airaudio.co.uk/dealers/?brand=hana
------------- Dave
Michell Gorbe + HR PSU -> Cadenza Bronze -> SME V -> Elevator -> Accession -> Proprius -> B&W CM6 s2 | Cusat 50 & Spatia cables ->
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2016 at 12:36pm
Those Hana carts do look interesting. Any thoughts, Bob, on how they compare to the 2M Ortofons?
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2016 at 1:47pm
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I've never listened to a 2M Paul, so it's hard to say how a Hana compares to them. Taken on it's own merits the EL version I have is a great all-round cartridge - plenty of depth, smooth and detailed midrange, and nice highs. The Shibata version is no doubt more refined, and the high output versions will sound a little different but almost certainly share similar traits. None of which answers your question!
------------- Bob
Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2016 at 1:56pm
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I like the detail of the 2M Blue but I'm sensitive to brightness (a contradiction if ever I wrote one) so, what I'd like is a cart that gives me the detail but without harshness. I deliberately picked some fairly "dark" speakers to tone down the brightness in my system/room and am again tempted to go for something a little warmer (like the Hana). My concern is though, that the combination will overdo the warmth and remove the detail I like. Of course, there's only one (expensive) way to find out.
Any idea what the compliance of the Hana is, Bob? It's a fairly light cart and I suspect that compliance will be crucial in determining how well matched it'll be with my 8g tonearm. Can't seem to find it in any specs.
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2016 at 4:25pm
morris_minor wrote:
The Zyx R-50 Bloom carts get a http://thetomtomclub.ning.com/profiles/blogs/zyx-r50-bloom - good press too, though even the H model needs an MC stage since it's output is only 0.48mV. It's only "high" in relation to the "low" output version . .  |
A good point, well presented.
------------- Kevin European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France. Funkified SL1200 Mk.II, BB3, Firebottle Kin , ADI-2 DAC FS, Modulus 686, PD-S703, Solo UL, Triangle Antal EZ
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2016 at 6:28pm
I emailed one of the dealers of the Hana carts to ask about compliance. I won't say which one, but this is the response I got: "The manufacturer does not specify the compliance as today virtually all modern
cartridges have no compliance issues."
Discuss.
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2016 at 6:45pm
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Hmm. I don't think compliance is such an issue as it was. At either of the scale you had the likes of ADC and Ortofon SPUs. These days only the SPUs are out there. (BTW my knowledge of this is fairly limited and I'm open to being proved wrong!).
The info sheet on my Hana is packed away at the moment, so I can't check it for compliance data, but my instinct tells me it'd be no problem on your tonearm.
------------- Bob
Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links
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Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2016 at 6:48pm
CageyH wrote:
morris_minor wrote:
The Zyx R-50 Bloom carts get a http://thetomtomclub.ning.com/profiles/blogs/zyx-r50-bloom - good press too, though even the H model needs an MC stage since it's output is only 0.48mV. It's only "high" in relation to the "low" output version . .  | A good point, well presented. | Zyx's designation is pretty confusing TBH. Something like the Benz Ace series is a lot better for distinguishing output levels . .
------------- Bob
Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2016 at 6:52pm
morris_minor wrote:
Hmm. I don't think compliance is such an issue as it was. At either of the scale you had the likes of ADC and Ortofon SPUs. These days only the SPUs are out there. (BTW my knowledge of this is fairly limited and I'm open to being proved wrong!).
The info sheet on my Hana is packed away at the moment, so I can't check it for compliance data, but my instinct tells me it'd be no problem on your tonearm. |
According to Vinyl Engine's cartridge resonance evaluator table, a 5g cart on an 8g tonearm has a range of 15-34 x 10-6 cm/dyne (by the way, how does that translate into nM? I've always assumed they're the same but...).
That range sounds quite broad but then the Nagaoka MP 200 has a stated compliance of 7.2 (bearing in mind, that's at 100Hz, which converts to something around 13 at 10Hz). This just crawls into the acceptable range at the top end of the scale. Of course, all of this is just a guide but, again, I'm reluctant to spend good money on a cart that may not be a good fit.
This is a cheeky ask, I know, but is there any chance you could send me a brief sample rip to have a listen to? Anything Beatles-related would provide an excellent basis on which I could compare with my Ortofon and listen back to on my system. I'd be very grateful.
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2016 at 7:01pm
While I'm on the subject of the Hana: I notice that it's output (2mV) is right at the lower limit of the recommended range of the Era Gold V. Is this likely to be a problem?
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2016 at 7:05pm
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I think I'd be inclined to get a good phono amp (from Graham, natch!) and use this with your 2M and get to know the sound of the new pairing before jumping in on an obviously unlistened-to cartridge of whatever flavour.
Trying to get components to counteract short-comings (whether actual or perceived) in a system is a path strewn with uncertainties. GSP components (of all sorts) are essentially neutral - they don't have "flavour", and just let the other connected bits perform to the best of their ability. An Era Gold V or Reflex will let you hear your 2M in all it's glory. You may well find it now works as you want it to. Should you still perceive problems, then that's the time to look at other carts. (All IMO of course!)
------------- Bob
Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links
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Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2016 at 7:05pm
Paul H wrote:
While I'm on the subject of the Hana: I notice that it's output (2mV) is right at the lower limit of the recommended range of the Era Gold V. Is this likely to be a problem? | No! Just turn your amp up a bit . . 
------------- Bob
Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2016 at 7:12pm
morris_minor wrote:
I think I'd be inclined to get a good phono amp (from Graham, natch!) and use this with your 2M and get to know the sound of the new pairing before jumping in on an obviously unlistened-to cartridge of whatever flavour.
Trying to get components to counteract short-comings (whether actual or perceived) in a system is a path strewn with uncertainties. GSP components (of all sorts) are essentially neutral - they don't have "flavour", and just let the other connected bits perform to the best of their ability. An Era Gold V or Reflex will let you hear your 2M in all it's glory. You may well find it now works as you want it to. Should you still perceive problems, then that's the time to look at other carts. (All IMO of course!) |
Absolutely right. The issue isn't so much about using a new pre amp to alter the short comings of the system (in terms of its sonic characteristics), it's about getting a better sound, getting the best out of what I have.
The issue with my 2M Blue is more that I don't like it's sound whatever I'm listening on. Through my hi fi it sounds acceptable mostly, it's when I play needledrops back on, say, my iPod that it's shortcomings become more noticeable. That, of course, may have something to do with the equipment I'm using for the ripping but I suspect not much.) Put simply, after donkeys years of listening to music on a make-do basis, I'd like to finally (before my hearing starts to deteriorate seriously) listen through good equipment. That may mean sticking with some of what I have, but I hear such good things about other equipment, that it's hard not to want to at least try some of it.
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2016 at 7:42am
I can't argue with your ambition, Paul! From my own experience, try to avoid changing more than one component at at time - that's a path to utter confusion when you're dealing with small, incremental increases in performance . . .
------------- Bob
Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2016 at 8:29am
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Yes. I'm carrying out what I like to call "due diligence" on a number of cartridges in order to over-ride my own habit of buying stuff on the spur of the moment. I often find that I make my mind up one day only to change it the next so, by giving myself a long "run up" to buying a new cartridge I can give myself time to let ideas "settle". In the cold light of morning, some of my more adventurous ideas can seem somewhat unnecessary, so I like to see what floats to the top, as it were.
The idea of a pre amp has been in my mind for some time and, without a single dissenter, everyone who's commented (here and elsewhere) has suggested that a dedicated amp will improve vinyl reproduction. So now I'm happy that this isn't a silly flight of fancy, I can settle into auditioning equipment.
Once I've introduced that into my system, I'll turn my attention to cartridges but before I do that I need to settle in my mind what I want, what my budget is etc etc. Hence all the questions.
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2016 at 10:05am
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Ah, yes . . . spur of the moment purchases! I know all about these. When I got back into using p-mount turntables, I scoured the planet for p-mount carts in the belief they were going to be scarce, and snapped 'em up without much thought!. Indeed, some were pretty rare, but I'd have never been left without a source of any. For a while I was pretty obsessed and even made a little website with needledrops for folk to compare sound quality.
I'm letting the site expire (which may happen quite soon), but if you're interested enough to register you can have a listen to a wide range of carts - all with the same tracks recorded via a Reflex M. I used a pimped-up Technics parallel tracker for the rips . . .
http://p-mount.net/ - http://p-mount.net/
What is needed is a similar site for every half-inch mount cartridge - though of course this would be totally impractical . . 
------------- Bob
Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2016 at 10:24am
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:)
In all seriousness, something like the vinyl engine cartridge database, using downloadable audio clips would be utterly invaluable. Of course, in practice it's very unrealistic, but something like that would be a HUGE help when shopping for carts.
I'm really tempted by the Hana cart - it sounds like it offers the detail of a 2M Black without the analyticalness (if that's a word) - which seems perfect but, having already gone for a set of speakers with a darker sound, I'm concerned that the Hana will compound the issue whereas the 2M may just be a perfect counterpoint. Of course, without such a database, all I can do is buy one and try it. God, this is an expensive hobby.
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2016 at 6:02pm
My most recent audition of cartridges led me to believe that there are significant differences between models/brands and unlike the better or worse a lot of it came down to personal preference including orthofon, dynavector, Lyra and transfiguration in the £600-1300 range.
Agree phono stage first and one change at a time.
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Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2016 at 8:38am
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Paul, one of the YouTube channels I subscribe to is of needledrop videos which are very well done with quality sound (not just a camcorder mic in front of speakers). I noticed there are a number of cartridge comparison videos which you may find interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/user/HiFisquarepants/videos - http://www.youtube.com/user/HiFisquarepants/videos
Here's an example:
------------- Bob
Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2016 at 9:34am
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I took a punt on the Ortofon 2M Black; a bit of an extravagance given that it's roughly the price of my table. Unfortunately, I'm having problems with it.
Rather bizarrely, it's output volume appears to be far too high. I originally noticed some distortion on playback, but it was only when I tried a needledrop that I noticed something was wrong. The waveform is coming out looking like it's been aggressively brickwalled.
I faffed around with my recording settings for an age before coming to the conclusion that it could only be a problem with the stylus. To test this theory, I removed the Black stylus and placed my previous Blue on the Black cartridge. You can see the problem in the image below. Left is drop using the Blue on Black; right is the Black on Black, recorded at the same volume.
Needless to say, my table is back at the retailer who fitted the cart. Henley Designs have agreed to send a replacement but I must confess I'm concerned the replacement will do the same. Not sure why I'm worried but I am... 
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: DaveG
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2016 at 5:05pm
Curious problem, that I can offer no explanation for. Ortofon's QC is generally reckoned to be as good as any, but no one is perfect.
If it's any consolation, when I bought my Cadenza it was bottoming out on occasion. The dealer seemed to think it was me setting it up wrong but agreed to send it over to Henley Designs/Ortofon to be put under the microscope. They quickly confirmed that it did indeed have what they described as a "slightly saggy bottom" and replaced it without quibble within a couple of days. The replacement was perfect.
Sometimes things can go awry... it's how the manufacturer responds to them that determines whether they get any more of my cash in the future. Hope your issue gets sorted out.
------------- Dave
Michell Gorbe + HR PSU -> Cadenza Bronze -> SME V -> Elevator -> Accession -> Proprius -> B&W CM6 s2 | Cusat 50 & Spatia cables ->
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2016 at 5:32pm
What's most interesting, is that if I pull the stylus a smidge away from the cart (so that it isn't fully home), the volume reduces a fraction. Pull it further and it decreases even more. I can "correct" the problem by pulling it a mm or so out of the cart. Clearly something isn't right...
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: Drewan77
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2016 at 6:18pm
This does sound like a faulty stylus as I use a 2M Black with both Black & Blue stylii on my second turntable via a Reflex M. Although I haven't measured, the volume sounds the same on both & neither display clipping or distortion
------------- Older than I once was, younger than I'll be ............................. Andrew
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2016 at 6:32pm
Didn't you mention (on Steve Hoffman's site) that you use the Blue on a Black cart? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on why (beyond, obviously, that you like the sound!).
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: Drewan77
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2016 at 7:20pm
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Hi Paul
I originally bought a Blue stylus when the 2M Black was on my old RP6. The reasons were:
- One piece arm/headshell meant that I couldn’t easily swap cartridges around.
- I wanted something to play on less than perfect LPs or for background listening.
- A lower cost stylus for late night listening when I might have had one too many.
- Using the Blue stylus would prolong the life of the more expensive Black version.
I found that the 2M Blue stylus on the Black body gave a sound that is pretty close to the full 2M Black, much closer than the relative prices would suggest. It has slightly leaner bass but is pretty tight, treble is a little less refined but without distortion and only occasional sibilance. It tracks better on one or two LPs where the Black struggles for some reason and it drags out less surface noise. On my system it does sound very good on almost everything I play.
I have since aligned the cartridge to the Blue cantilever/stylus as this is the most commonly used configuration on that turntable, using the Black only occasionally. However, if this was my main table, I would probably do it the other way.
If/when the Black stylus wears out, I will not replace it. When the Blue does, I will purchase another.
------------- Older than I once was, younger than I'll be ............................. Andrew
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Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2016 at 7:33pm
That is a pity and good news about the speedy replacement which I hope will give you the better sound you seek. I would guess dodgy mounting/suspension on the first part as it's allowing the cantilever and magnet to move a lot more on the same grooves. How did it sound 'live' Paul?
------------- Jon
Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2016 at 12:35pm
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Tonally, it sounded excellent "live" but it did display the same characteristics one gets with overly loud CDs: a sense that ALL the space was being filled with sound and there were hints of distortion in places.
What worries me slightly is that the retailer who fitted it for me told me he thought it sounded lovely when he hooked it up to listen to after it was returned.
Anyway, we'll see how we go.
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: hedgehog@35
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2016 at 6:46pm
Paul, If I can go back to your original post and think a little about what you originally asked. I certainly agree that it is very difficult to give a definitive answer when thinking about how a new cartridge will sound in your system. Every component interracts with each other, and the whole system is affected by the acoustics of your listening room. Despite all that, here goes:
1. Ortofon MM cartridges probably tend towards a modern, analytical type of sound, and less to the warmer, richer sound of cartridges designed two or more decades ago. The classic example is modern Goldring 2000 series cartidges which are very detailed and 'project' (excuse the pun), a forward, modern sound. The older 1000 series, designed over 20 years ago, sound richer, warmer and a bit more laid back. I have Goldring 2400 and 1042 cartridges and they can both sound great, but have different strengths and weaknesses. Back to your Ortofon - I don't know the blue, but presently have a 2M black in my system. I think the blue offers fantastic value for money, but needs to be in a system that will work well with its 'upfront' sound.
2. I think a GS phono stage is a great idea and will certainly be better than your onboard stage in the Denon amp. But I feel this is where you should be looking first. I have briefly heard Denon amps so cannot give you an informed opinion. However, magazine reviews of your amp have commented on an overly bright treble. If this is the case, it will not be doing your turntable/cartridge any favours. Are you happy with the sound when playing cd's? I would expect the Arcam player with its warmer sound to work well with your Denon amp. Can you get a loan amp from your local dealer? If they are any good they should be happy to do this. A Rega Brio comes to mind, but if you like Richer sounds they won't stock this. Alternatively, find a store where you can bring your amp and compare it to others with a Project deck and cartridge similar to your own. A home trial is definitely better though.
3. You have a good turntable , cartridge and speakers - I would use that as your starting point and look to the amplifier. If you do decide to change your amplifier, then the next logical step in the future would be a GS phono stage. I had a Rega Brio and then added the Gram Amp SE - HUGE upgrade in detail, sound stage etc. Later on with a different amp, I moved to Era Gold - again a good improvement, but not as big as that first step into a separate GS phono stage.
4. Ah, Ortofon quality control! I won't bore you with the details, but I sent back my brand new 2M black because I couldn't get it to track properly (SME arm). Hi Fi shop said it looked perfect! Turned out it could not track properly when tested by Ortofon, so new stylus on the cartridge. When I had set up and plugged in, it tracked beautifully except nothing came out the right channel! Cartridge body went back and was replaced. Stereo was restored. Cartridge now sounds great, but I do notice that the stylus assembly seems quite loose fit on the body. But I want to make this point - when I upgraded from a Rega arm to SME on my Gyrodec, all my cartridges sounded much better - as much as if I was listening to new cartridges. So what I am trying to say is that you can certainly buy a £500 cartridge, but you will not hear a lot of what it has to offer. If you took your 2M blue and put in a well set up high - end arm and turntable, it would be like listening to a brand new cartridge. Sorry for writing a short novel, but just a few thoughts on where you might want to go next. But please, don't buy anything without listening first, preferably in your own system.
------------- Russell
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Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2016 at 9:22pm
Paul, do you find that you have very limited range on CD and the attributes you refer to is worse on higher output newer music CDs? If so you may benefit from some in line attenuators you can buy these from Rothwelll c£40 a pair. Very effective if you do have very limited range.
Richard
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 01 May 2016 at 9:53pm
Thanks for your comments Russell and Richard. My 2M Black will, hopefully, be replaced in a couple of days and, fingers crossed, the level problem will be resolved. Not sure where I go next if it isn't but I'll cross that bridge if I get to it.
I was tempted to go for a warmer sounding cart but I learnt something interesting about my listening preferences when I bought new speakers a few months ago:
My previous speakers had sounded very harsh in my system and, after much auditioning, I picked the Epos speakers because they offered the most relaxed sound I could find. Once installed I noticed that I was hearing much less top end detail than I could hear via my headphones and for a while I found this actually quite disappointing. To the point where I seriously considered replacing the speakers.
In the end I've kept them because, at the end of the day, the fact is I enjoy listening to these speakers. I get no fatigue from them at all (whereas my previous speakers were a bugger for this). Overall, I enjoy the sound I get from my Arcam but I do find that the top end can still sound a little harsh/brittle. Not overly so and not as bad as those old speakers but still I strive for that little bit better. To that end I found the 2M Blue just a little strident. The Black seems to iron out that complaint (notwithstanding the present problem I'm having with it) so - given my earlier response to "losing" a bit of top end - I'm trying to resist the temptation to go for a warmer cart.
Someone somewhere else once commented that the cartridge wasn't the best place to introduce "tone control". And I find myself agreeing with that sentiment: get the most "honest" transfer of sound from vinyl to amp and then worry about adjustments.
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: hedgehog@35
Date Posted: 02 May 2016 at 12:29am
Thinking again about your Ortofon cartridges. Do you mind if I ask an obvious question? Did you alter the tracking force when you changed from Black styus to blue and back again? It's just that the black has a tracking force range a bit lower than the blue. I usually set a cartridge towards the maximum of its range which would be 1.7g for the black and 2.0g for the blue. This would have no effect on output, but could affect distortion you might hear.
Secondly, the 2M cartridges do seem to produce a very high output compared to other moving magnet designs. Most MM's produce between 3 and 5mV, but I believe a black was tested for a review and measured at 8mV. I certainly do not need to increase amplifier volume as much when using the Ortofon compared to my other cartridges.
I know that a shop set up your deck, but I always think it is a good idea to learn how to set up a cartridge yourself. I know it might seem a bit daunting at first, and you need to have a couple of basic tools, but it is well worth doing. I apologise if you already can do this. I would begin by buying an electronic stylus gauge for accurately measuring tracking force. You can buy a perfectly decent one on ebay for as little as £7.50. You could buy one which looks exactly the same, but with 'Project' printed on it for £90! You choose. I'm sure it's an excellent shop, but it would not do any harm to check their set up. You need to remember to set the bias compensation to zero (unhook little weight?) and wedge the platter to stop it moving when you place the stylus onto the gauge. I would then check the tracking of your cartridge to see if the set up is correct. You really need to get a test record such as the Hi Fi news test LP. I know it's expensive, but if you think you might get into vinyl seriously, well worth having. Alternatively, ask your Hi Fi shop to demonstrate the tracking with their test record! You have to be careful using these records and use music as the final test, but a test lp will give you an indication if something is not right. It was how I was able to prove to myself that I wasn't just hearing things when my original black cartridge was mistracking.
I am concerned that you are going to shell out another £250 on a cartridge that may or may not solve your problem. Cheaper alternatives which would probably tame your treble are the classic Shure 97XE at about £85 or The Grado Prestige Gold at about £220. Both have the 'rolled off' treble of MM cartridges of the past. The trouble is that in taming the treble, you may lose a lot of that detail which you obviously want to keep. Sorry to repeat myself, but I would still try and borrow an alternative amp like a cheaper NAD or Marantz and see how the sound of your system changes. If you don't like the sound, it won't have cost you anything.
Do you have a hard floor covering like laminate or bare floorboards. Do you have mostly bare walls and little soft furnishings. Reducing hard reflective surfaces in your room might also help to reduce the harshness you are hearing. I do have great sympathy, because I also detest overbright Hi Fi, which is why I'm not too keen on some very popular makes of speakers! Best of luck.
------------- Russell
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 02 May 2016 at 7:54am
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Hi Russell,
yes, I altered the tracking force. The 2M Black comes with a little plastic tracking force gauge - probably not the most accurate but certainly not - and my tonearm and balance were set up fine so I'm fairly confident tracking force isn't the problem. I tried increasing and decreasing it to no avail.
The issue at hand is that, while the Black should be outputting at 10% less than the Blue that it replaced, it's outputting so high that it's creating flat peaks. Clearly that's not right. I have the Hi Fi News LP you mention. I got some interesting results when I played around.
Firstly, when I purchased my 2M Blue (a year or so ago) I noticed that it dealt with the bias setting 300Hz tone at +18dB better than it did the same tone at +15dB. It dealt with the lower volume tones fine. However, the new Black (bearing in mind it was brand new) struggled at +15dB and literally jumped out of the groove at +18dB. Couldn't handle it at all. I adjusted the anti-skate weight and the factory recommended setting proved best.
I should clarify: I'm not intending to buy another cartridge. The Black is my chosen solution to the harsh treble problem. It's just that I'm having problems with the one that's been fitted. Hopefully in a couple of days the problem will be sorted.
As for my room, well, there's little I can do to it. My wife is very understanding of my desire to finally own a system that gives me great pleasure but there's very little I can do in the room I have, and it is full of compromises which don't help the harshness. To be fair though, the harshness was built into the system because it's been present regardless of which room it's been in. The Epos speakers have helped and I'm hoping that - once it's been sorted - the 2M Black will contribute as well.
I'm also about to take delivery of a (second hand) Revelation M which I have high hopes for as well.
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: hedgehog@35
Date Posted: 02 May 2016 at 11:14am
Paul, Sorry about assuming that you didn't know about cartridge set up, but often can be the problem, particularly with the black which seems to need quite careful set up. I don't even bother trying the +18dB 'torture' track because I don't think it tells you anything useful. With my first ortofon black, it could only just clear the + 12dB level on side 1. My new one will track up to +16dB cleanly, but I find I can reduce the bias a little bit with no 'buzzing' on the right channel. I still set to maximum suggested tracking force, as I do believe mistracking will cause far more damage to my precious vinyl rather than a slightly higher tracking force. If you can get your cartridge to cleanly track the three +15dB tracks on side 2, then you should have no problems with any record you will ever come across (possibly except cannons at the end of 1812 overture!). Do you experience the same level of harsh treble with headphones? - just thinking of taking the room and speaker cable out of the equation. Congratulations on your new phono stage - it will be a huge upgrade on the internal stage of your amp. Please let us know about your replacement stylus as I am curious to see if there is a QC problem with the 2M black cartridge. Best of luck
------------- Russell
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 02 May 2016 at 1:46pm
Oh, don't worry about that, Russell. I'd much rather you ask basic questions than make inaccurate assumptions. While I had the Black mounted, I really liked its sonic signature. Hopefully, it will solve the harshness issues in my system.
That just leaves me with the eternal quandary of whether there are other improvements I can be making :) but in the meantime, I'd like to just take some time to enjoy my new cart (assuming the dealer can get one to work properly) and impending "new" phono stage.
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 02 May 2016 at 2:41pm
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Paul don't forget cables -not sure if you have already stated what you are using but whilst not being able to make a silk purse our of a sows ear good cables can minimise effects you describe. Colouractions I thought were speakers were pretty much removed with speaker cable & internal wiring upgrades and the same happened with other cables further up the chain also.
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 02 May 2016 at 6:57pm
I'm using Blue Jeans BC-1 interconnects and Van Den Hul "The Bridge" speaker cables.
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 03 May 2016 at 3:08pm
It's been suggested to me that the saturation problems I've experienced with my new 2M Black (see below) might simply be due to my sound card not being able to cope with a hotter signal. To that end, it has been suggested that I try installing an attenuator (say -12dB) in the chain to see if it solves the problem. Apart from the fact that I struggle to believe that a £500 cartridge would require a modification such as this to one's system, I wonder if anyone could offer any observations about this, in terms of whether that seems appropriate for the cart and where in one's system an attenuator might best be placed. I'm due to acquire a Revelation M soon so I presume my options include plugging the attenuator into my table, the phono stage or (possibly) the integrated amp output...
Paul H wrote:
2M Blue sample on left, 2M Black sample on right... 
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------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: Drewan77
Date Posted: 03 May 2016 at 3:34pm
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Paul, I have been running a 2M Black through a Reflex M for several years - it does not need attenuators. Others on here have also run 2M Blacks' through GSP phono stages without distortion or clipping (Johan/Suede when he was in Sweden as I recall and definitely Graham Slee).
The 2M Black has an output of 5mv, the Blue 5.5mv, so the signal should not be 'hotter' with the Black. The most likely cause remains a faulty Ortofon cartridge .
------------- Older than I once was, younger than I'll be ............................. Andrew
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Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 03 May 2016 at 3:35pm
Paul, is there any kind of software-based level control available to you - either in the program you use to record the wave file, or in the device settings? I do rips with various cartridges, some with widely varying outputs, and a level control is a necessity. However I do find it very odd that two samples of the same series should differ so much. The 2M Black has .5mV LESS output than the Blue (according to Ortofon's website . . ),which in the scheme of things should be largely irrelevant.
I think attenuators (which I have used when making rips where the level control in software wasn't sufficient - MMs were almost invariably too hot) would solve the problem. Of course your Blue could be abnormally LOW in output . . .
I can send you a pair of 10dB attenuators to try out if you like. 5.5mV is quite high, and the gain coming from your Revelation is quite likely to be too much for your audio interface to handle. Before I had the Accession (with it's oh-so-handy variable output) I used a phono t-adaptor on the output of the Reflex: one cable going direct to pre-amp, the other with attenuators going to the audio interface. This put the level somewhere in the middle of the software level control's range and made fine adjustment easier.
PM me about the attenuators if you want to try them out.
------------- Bob
Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links
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Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 03 May 2016 at 3:38pm
Drewan77 wrote:
The 2M Black has an output of 5mv, the Blue 5.5mv, so the signal should not be 'hotter' with the Black. The most likely cause remains a faulty Ortofon cartridge . | But which one?
Apart from the Black sounding louder, is the "quality" of both ok?
------------- Bob
Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 03 May 2016 at 5:25pm
I'd agree that, in theory, the Black shouldn't need attenuating. If nothing else, as noted, it's output should be roughly the same as the Blue. However, I've read several comments over on Steve Hoffman's forum suggesting that their Black also plays hot. One poster suggested that his calmed down after running in but I'm dubious of that claim.
I don't have any way of adjusting the input volume on my soundcard (that said, I remember playing with the volume control when I first installed it and that DID seem to offer volume control. However, nothing seems to work now and, believe me, I've tinkered with the settings/menus).
To add to the confusion, I tried something this afternoon: switching to CD as input source. And I got the same overloaded input as I did with the Black. This, of course, suggests that the problem lies with the soundcard but doesn't explain why I never had this problem with the Blue or, indeed, my previous cart.
I'm really not sure where to go with this. On the one hand, it seems clear to me that the issue lies with the cart. There's no way a Black should be significantly louder than the Blue unless, as noted by someone else, there was a problem with the Blue. I have a sinking feeling that the replacement Black isn't going to be any different in which case I either have to try out the attenuation option (thank you, Bob, I'll PM you shortly) or give up on the Black and look elsewhere for an upgrade (assuming I can get a full refund). But then, if the problem really does lie with the soundcard, that will just cause me another world of pain.
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 4:39pm
Bob very kindly sent me a pair of 10dB attenuators and, while I can't test them on my table/cart (it's still back with the retailer awaiting a replacement), I popped it into my system in a couple of places to see what impact it had. Firstly, I connected them to the outs on my CD player, then I tried placing them in my amp out (that sends the rec signal to my soundcard).
Using CD as my (only) source the attenuators do noticeably reduce record volume but it's still coming in far too hot. No idea how much attenuation I'm going to need but 20dB wouldn't seem out of the question. What baffles me is that I needed no attenuation at all using my Blue. Was it really outputting 20dB less than a) Elton's Songs from the West Coast CD and, b) my Black? Of course, the input volume from CD is neither here nor there: I won't be needledropping CDs :) but my interest is just how much louder that CD is to the volume of the 2M Black...
I suppose we'll just have to see. The big question is: If the Black also requires 20dB of attenuation to avoid saturating my soundcard, is that going to adversely affect the quality of needledrop?
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 4:52pm
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Is there no way to adjust the input level in software, Paul? I never the felt the attenuators were adversely affecting the quality of needledrops. I guess a second set of attenuators in series would give a 20dB drop.
If the digital signal clips (apart from the odd peak here and there) you'll definitely hear it . . .
------------- Bob
Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 05 May 2016 at 8:43pm
I can adjust the record volume but as you can see from the wave form it just distorts at a lower level. The card uses a single jack for both mic and line in. I can adjust volume in increments if I use the jack in mic setting but not line in.
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 06 May 2016 at 9:39am
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It all seems very odd, Paul! A lower level input should not distort. I assume you'd done non-distorted rips with your 2M Blue? And it's just the Black that distorts? When just listening to the Black did it sound good?
So many questions!
------------- Bob
Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 06 May 2016 at 11:59am
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Yeah, it has me baffled, Bob. There seems to be two issues at play:
Soundcard:
the soundcard is an external one: an Asus Xonar U7. It has a button on the side of the card chassis that allows mic input volume to be adjusted in increments but does not affect Line In input volume. There is a separate volume adjustment possible using the software. This allows me to adjust the maximum peak level of recordings made either using Mic or Line In. Remember, both use the same jack.
I have this volume set at -6dB to ensure that peaks don't exceed that. It doesn't compress the signal any, just keeps the record volume down.
Cart/stylus:
I was able to get natural/normal signal input using the Blue stylus on a Silver (modified Red) cart and also - once I'd identified a problem with the Black - using the Blue stylus on the Black cart. This seemed to suggest that the problem lies with the Black. As you can see from my earlier screen shots, the Black just produces square waveforms with flattened peaks.
I haven't been able to confirm if the problem is related to the stylus because my table remains at the shop awaiting a replacement.
However, I did try recording CDs through the soundcard just to see how it behaved and what difference the attenuators made. My Elton John "Songs from the West Coast" CD proved very loud (it probably is) and it took 20dB of attenuation to get the volume down such that peaks occurred below the -6dB threshold. They still looked a little flat though, suggesting to me that the original recording has flat peaks. So I swapped the CD for something from the 80s that would be so loud (Elton's Reg Strikes Back, as it happens) and this looked much better.
I'd be happy to accept that the problem really lies with my sensitive sound card and insert some attenuation into my system but: 1. The soundcard came recommended by several users for the purposes of needledropping. I can't believe it would have done if vinyl sources needed such extreme attenuation (or at least without the caveat that it does). 2. None of the soundcard issues explain why I was able to get perfectly satisfactory 'drops from my Blue. Given that both have roughly the same quoted output volume, one of them must be either faulty or improperly set up. And the fact that the Blue 'dropped perfectly suggests that the fault isn't with the soundcard...
To answer your question about how it sounds, tonally it sounds very good but it does sound "full" and I do hear some distortion during loud passages. All of this is, however, somewhat irrelevant as I bought the cart as much for creating "definitive" needledrops as for listening for pleasure. Even if the cart sounds okay I'm not prepared to accept it if I can't use it to create accurate representations of what's actually on the vinyl.
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 06 May 2016 at 12:36pm
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Just a thought (clutching at straws here!), on page 40 of the U7 manual it tells you how to access the Windows Sound Recorder applet. Go into this and see what the settings are. I would have thought that the U7 software bypasses this, but it might not, and you may have an input level slider here. (I'm on a Mac at the moment, and can't quite remember what the Windows Sound Recorder controls are . . .).
From what you describe it does seem like the Black's generator is at fault here. And unless you're playing worn or badly mastered records the Black shouldn't produce audible distortion in loud passages IMO.
------------- Bob
Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 06 May 2016 at 1:51pm
I'm no expert on this but the Windows sound recorder settings are altered by the Asus Software, such that when I reduce the rec volume in the Asus control panel to -6dB it alters the sound level in the Windows applet to around 50%. I did have to set the Windows settings to 24/96 to ensure I was getting genuine hi res recordings.
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 06 May 2016 at 5:53pm
TBH I'm not surprised the Asus trumps the Windows settings . . . Don't really know what else to suggest, sorry!
------------- Bob
Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 07 May 2016 at 9:54am
No worries. Thanks for your suggestions and generosity so far. I'll await the outcome of the replacement of my cart and see what impact, if any, that has. My big concern is that the replacement cart will throw out a similarly loud signal and the rep will say it's working fine and that the problem is in my system somewhere. That will lead to a frustrating discussion about why my Blue seems immune to all this.
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: Sturgus
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2016 at 5:16am
Did you ever get your cartridge business squared away? If so how did it turn out? Sturgus
------------- Musical Design pre/Dac/Phono Amps Aronov VPI HW-19 Lustre 801 /Koetsu-Rosewood /GS Elevator/Accension / LP12 Audiomods-Nagoka500 Merlin VSM speakers Dalhquist subs Pioneer pd-75/ squeezebox
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2016 at 6:18am
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Thank you for asking. My dealer replaced the cartridge but the output was pretty similar. I've permanently added in a pair of 10dB attenuators which help greatly.
I've decided to put some miles into the 2M Black to see how it fairs when it breaks in. One thing I noticed though, is that the 2M Blue stylus I'd been using previously, was a much tighter fit on the cartridge and when I pushed it firmly home I noticed that the volume increased significantly compared to how it had been before all these shenanigans started.
I'm beginning to think that the problem was a poorly fitted Blue stylus rather than an overly loud Black. I am still finding the Black a little "full on" and, ever a victim of Upgraditus, I've been musing on trying my luck with a Hana cartridge. I know Bob has enthused about them. Problem is, I have a very light tonearm, which means I'd have to add in some weight for the Hanas to be appropriate.
Anyway, for now I'm just putting hours on the 2M Black and will see how I get on with it.
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: DaveG
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2016 at 9:01am
Paul
Have I got this right - the problem is only when doing needle drops? How do things sound with Just TT -> phono stage -> amp? Where do you take the feed to your pc from? I guess you've tried pretty much every permutation, but it does seem like a really rigorous process of elimination is req'd as it's possibly something unique to your particular set up. That doesn't explain why it's just happening with the 2m black though unless it is faulty. Usually a google search will throw up loads of other people with similar issues, but in the case of the 2m black this doesn't appear to be the case. Do you have the opportunity to swap cables - maybe borrow some? The ones you use are very low capacitance, and while low usually = good maybe it's too low? A very frustrating problem
------------- Dave
Michell Gorbe + HR PSU -> Cadenza Bronze -> SME V -> Elevator -> Accession -> Proprius -> B&W CM6 s2 | Cusat 50 & Spatia cables ->
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2016 at 7:08pm
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Dave, I'm now pretty certain that the problem isn't with the cartridge, it was simply that the input into the soundcard is too high for it. I think Graham posted one of his eloquent posts about how this problem can actually afflict many/most soundcards. (I tried swapping out low cap cables for high cap ones, I put my Revelation M in the system and took it out again. I even swapped amps. Made no difference.)
Overall, I find the sound to be fine although a little "fuller" than I'd like. That may be a characteristic of having fewer than 50 hours on the cart, or possibly the combination of that cart and my Epos K1 speakers.
I've noticed some distortion on a few tracks but a) they're on albums that were mixed/mastered VERY loud and, b) although the distortion appears much less noticeable through headphones, a close listen confirms that it's still there, so perhaps it's just my speakers being more revealing than my phones.
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 27 Jun 2016 at 11:00pm
Paul H wrote:
While I'm on the subject of the Hana: I notice that it's output (2mV) is right at the lower limit of the recommended range of the Era Gold V. Is this likely to be a problem? |
Not in the slightest. I have the SH hanging off the end of my tonearm as I type, and it's digging deep and making beautiful. sweet, music.
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2016 at 1:17pm
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Hi Chris, thanks for the input. I've been comparing my 2M Blue to the 2M Black (both seated on the Black's cartridge) and I must say that, while I find the Black to be marginally more well-balanced, the difference certainly isn't night and day; and overall I'm leaning towards the Blue due to the reduction in ticks and pops.
I wonder whether you could offer some objective comments regarding the SH. I'm considering whether to try a different flavour to the Ortofon sound.
Also, I'd welcome some advice regarding effective tonearm weight. My ProJect tonearm is very light (8g) and the low dynamic compliance of carts like the Hana and Nagaoka suggest that these carts won't be a good match without adding some mass.
However, it would be useful to have some advice as to how to do that: I can see that using heavier screws would increase mass but how do I ensure I'm adding the right amount? Clearly, adding, say, 4g of mass at the headshell effectively adds more mass than placing it elsewhere, so how to I go about ensuring the right amount?
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2016 at 5:11pm
The Hana S (Shibata) carts don't have a showy HiFi sound. They sound more like a well set up Denon DL103 with better detail retrieval. Top and bottom are there, but there's no over exaggeration of either. The lucidity of the midband is wonderful.
A friend describes his as sounding like the best bits of the DL103 and the Ortofon SPU.
The carts themselves are very light at 5g, so your arm might not be as big a problem as you might think.
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2016 at 5:35pm
Well, I'm open to advice, but I thought a low mass cart and low mass tonearm required a high compliance cartridge. My understanding is that the Hanas are low compliance (although that's difficult to determine because their compliance rating is calculated differently to most other cart manufacturers).
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2016 at 1:35pm
Henley don't seem too bothered about using fairly low compliance cartridges with the Project carbon fibre arms. The Cadenza Red gets mentioned quite a bit.
As you've said, you can always increase the mass at the cartridge end of the arm by using longer bolts and maybe use additional nuts to increase mass. If that doesn't do the job entirely then you could also use a headshell spacer.
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Posted By: DaveG
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2016 at 1:47pm
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I usually use a resonance frequency calculator to get an idea on whether arm & cart are likely to be a good match. Something like http://www.resfreq.com/resonancecalculator.html - this .
The Hana, like many Japanese carts, is likely to have it's compliance calculated at 100hz rather than the more usual 10hz. My Axia was like this. However you can multiply the figure you get by around 1.5 to see if you are in the right ball park. The dealer reckoned not to worry too much about this as the final proof is in the listening ... but I do obsess about this kinda thing. Plus you usually have to buy to try, by which time its too late - especially with a cart.
------------- Dave
Michell Gorbe + HR PSU -> Cadenza Bronze -> SME V -> Elevator -> Accession -> Proprius -> B&W CM6 s2 | Cusat 50 & Spatia cables ->
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2016 at 4:37pm
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Yes, I've used a resonance frequency calculator to narrow down my options. Basically, what it suggests is that the cart is likely to fall into the (high) end of the acceptable RF range if I add mass to the headshell. That can be done, but the question is how much? If, for example, I add 6g of additional mass (in, say, the form of heavier nuts) am I adding the right amount given that the effect of the additional mass is much greater at the headshell than at the pivot.
Put simply: am I okay to just add additional weight or do I need to do some kind of calculation to determine the effective weight I need to add?
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2016 at 4:51pm
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I use Vinyl Engine's calculator : http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_resonance_evaluator.php - http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_resonance_evaluator.php
Just enter your tonearm's effective mass and you'll get a table of resonant frequencies applicable for a given cartridge compliance. The green shaded area is the "safe" area.
If your compliance/arm combo isn't in the green area modify the effective mass until it is. The difference (if I've got this right!) is the amount of weight you need to add to the headshell.
I use the Soundsmith thumbscrews - they come as a set of four with varying weights. The look a bit odd, but do the trick - plus making mounting a cart a bit easier.
------------- Bob
Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 30 Jun 2016 at 1:10pm
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Thanks for reminding me of that table, Bob. I'd forgotten one can use that to calculate the amount of mass to add. I guess I'm still unsure if, say, a 6g set of screws actually adds 6g of effective mass but I suspect I'm overthinking things.
Having done some serious critical listening to my Black I'm not sure it's providing me with the sound I'm looking for. It has a fuller sound than the Blue, which I like, but it just seems to, um, bloated (I guess is the best way to describe it). Maybe there's something in my set up that's causing it but if there is I don't know what it is.
I'm certainly tempted to try out a Hana but - having just bought a Revelation M and Black cart - I need to sell something first!
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 30 Jun 2016 at 2:00pm
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Paul the era gold I would describe a a fuller sound in the bass than the revelation wouldnt describe either as bloated. Cannot comment on your cartridges as you say maybe something elsewhere.
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 30 Jun 2016 at 6:35pm
I should qualify that the "something" I need to sell first will be the cart not the Revelation :)
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: japtim
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2016 at 11:00pm
Hi Don't know if it's too late to be of help but I have just swapped from a 2m black to a hana sh The hana compares very well with the 2m., You can hear immediately that they are in a similar price bracket I find the hana a little bright in comparison..with similar detail but less bass Having said that..it's still running in at 15 hrs and improving all the time ...the 2m took 50 hrs to sound it's best!! Just a note on the output ...I was very surprised that the volume was SO similar from both carts ...but I think I read a test that said the SH gives well over its rated output
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2016 at 11:43am
Thanks for the feedback, japtim (and welcome to the forum). Interesting comments on the comparison. I was fortunate enough to be able to listen to some needledrops of the Hana SH and my own A/B comparison suggested that it had a slightly warmer sound than the Black (that is, a little more bass, smoother treble)! Funny how we hear things differently.
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: japtim
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2016 at 6:24pm
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As I say ...it's still getting some hours on it at the moment ..may be your example was further down the road to being run in ? But I would not say as it stands that I think the Hana will end up with a smoother treble than the black ..but I can see the bass filling out in time
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Posted By: Sturgus
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2016 at 4:55am
Paul H wrote:
Yes, I've used a resonance frequency calculator to narrow down my options. Basically, what it suggests is that the cart is likely to fall into the (high) end of the acceptable RF range if I add mass to the headshell. That can be done, but the question is how much? If, for example, I add 6g of additional mass (in, say, the form of heavier nuts) am I adding the right amount given that the effect of the additional mass is much greater at the headshell than at the pivot.
Put simply: am I okay to just add additional weight or do I need to do some kind of calculation to determine the effective weight I need to add? | I hope you are getting this situation worked out. As far as adding mass you can try some Blue Tak on the headshell. I would weigh out some 1 gram balls and start with 1 gram and move up to the sweet spot. You can also add them to the counterweight so you don't have to back out the counterweight to far. Once you figure out what works. Buy a set of the SoundSmith mounting hardware. They come in different metals and weights. Not to mention they make mounting cartridges much easier. Let us know how things work out. Happy Listening Sturgus
------------- Musical Design pre/Dac/Phono Amps Aronov VPI HW-19 Lustre 801 /Koetsu-Rosewood /GS Elevator/Accension / LP12 Audiomods-Nagoka500 Merlin VSM speakers Dalhquist subs Pioneer pd-75/ squeezebox
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 08 Oct 2016 at 5:16am
Thanks for the advice, Sturgus. As it happens, I've abandoned the idea of changing the cart for now, partly because I thought I ought to spend more time just enjoying my music rather than seeking some elusive perfection, and partly because my wife is expecting our first baby, and spending another £500 on a cart doesn't seem the best use of our resources just at present :)
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 08 Oct 2016 at 8:07am
Maybe not spent enough time listening to Music by the sound of it!!! Congrats.
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Posted By: Sturgus
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2016 at 1:39am
Paul H wrote:
Thanks for the advice, Sturgus. As it happens, I've abandoned the idea of changing the cart for now, partly because I thought I ought to spend more time just enjoying my music rather than seeking some elusive perfection, and partly because my wife is expecting our first baby, and spending another £500 on a cart doesn't seem the best use of our resources just at present :) | I totally understand. Sometimes it's better to just hang back and enjoy what you have. There is no shortage of nice cartridges out there. By the way Congratulations!!! on the coming baby. I just became a Grandpa again on Sunday . His name is Sebastian after Bach. My daughter is a Viola player, he is her favorite composer. Good luck with the baby. Sturgus
------------- Musical Design pre/Dac/Phono Amps Aronov VPI HW-19 Lustre 801 /Koetsu-Rosewood /GS Elevator/Accension / LP12 Audiomods-Nagoka500 Merlin VSM speakers Dalhquist subs Pioneer pd-75/ squeezebox
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 26 Dec 2016 at 6:34pm
Reviving this thread because I've really not been enjoying the output of the 2M Black recently. It has something in the region of 100-150 hours on it. It took a while to get used to the amount of detail it picks out and, while I like that it controls the bass nicely, it seems thin in the midrange. I have the tonearm set tail down but this doesn't really help.
I'm wondering whether there's anything I can do to add a little more presence in the midrange. Can anyone offer any suggestions? I'm reluctant to go down the route of a cartridge change for the reasons I mentioned above :) so I wonder if there are any tweaks I could try.
I've lowered the capacitance to get within the 150-300 pF range Ortofon wants. By my own GUESStimate, I have the following: tonearm (assumed): 25 pF tonearm to pre-amp: 25 pF (using 2 feet of BlueJeans LC-1 @ 12.2 pF/foot) pre-amp: 100 pF.
That's giving me roughly 150pF of capacitance. I can swap out the BlueJeans cable for ProJect's own (which has a capacitance of 70 pF I'm advised), that would increase the capacitance to roughly 200, and put it nicely in the middle of the range.
However, I don't know how to adjust loading and don't think my system has the ability to do that.
As for checking alignment, my eyesight and dexterity aren't exactly great: if the Black is very sensitive to set up, it may be that a different cart is my best option.
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 26 Dec 2016 at 10:34pm
Increasing capacitance further-still places a steeper "hump" in the lower end of the highs, which might well improve its presence. A way of increasing it is to use a longer or more capacitive arm cable. Aim to add another 100pf.
------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 26 Dec 2016 at 10:49pm
Thanks Graham, I'll try that. At the risk of incurring one of those "trust your ears not a graph" responses, what are your thoughts on the analysis carried out at http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/ortofon-2m-black-frequency-response-charts.312499/" rel="nofollow - http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/ortofon-2m-black-frequency-response-charts.312499/ which suggests that increasing capacitance won't make much difference to the Black?
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2016 at 1:38pm
Would anyone like to comment on the Audio Note IQ range? I have vague recollections that someone here has one (and is familiar with the Ortofon 2M Black)). I'd welcome thoughts.
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: Drewan77
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2016 at 2:36pm
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That would be me Paul. I use an IQ cartridge with the IQ3, IQ2 & Goldring 1042 styli.
It's a very dynamic performer which suits my musical tastes - tight, deep bass, a well sorted midrange with extended, delicate treble. I have listened to Decca London cartridges and although the IQ3 doesn't pin you to your seat in the same way, it certainly shares some of the drama they are renowned for but without the pitfalls.
It's less clinical than the 2M range and therefore listening has more emotional connection. Comparing the same LP with its CD counterpart via the Majestic DAC, the overall tonal balance is extremely close although it's certainly more lively in the way leading edges attack. It is as if you are sitting closer to every performance than with the 2M Black... itself by no means a slouch.
Soundstaging is excellent, as is tracking and alignment seems less critical than the 2M Black (I initially set it up using the Feickert device rather than the ultra-fussy Mint protractor & it sounded spot-on right away so that's how I've left it). I would say surface noise is also a little less apparent.
The IQ3 and 2 are extremely close sounding with the 2 slightly exaggerating scratchy (female) vocals, sibilance and things like violins on poorer recordings. The IQ3 handles treble better than any MM cartridge I have heard and has a great delicacy about it when paired with the Accession. Conversely, the 1042 Gyger stylus just sounds smooth and silky and I listen to that a lot when I'm in a mellow mood - not a huge difference to the IQs overall but with slower bass notes and more laid back treble. I use this combination a lot.
I was lucky to obtain a supposedly damaged IQ2 for £50 and easily repaired the twisted cantilever but the price for new IQs is pretty high so you need to be absolutely sure one of these would suit you (start with an IQ1 & upgrade styli later?). It's a pity you live so far away from me although there is a very friendly guy on HiFi Wigwam called Steve (Rmsshipbroker) with an all AN system including the IQ3 which I have heard. He lives in Sheffield which isn't too far from you & I am sure he would let you listen if you asked. ...One other thing... the arm I use with this cartridge is the Audiomods model V - Jeff Spall admits to using the Goldring 1042 during its development so I may be benefiting from a high degree of synergy given that Goldring build the IQs under license & the bodies are externally similar. (edited to remove the ASCII characters)
------------- Older than I once was, younger than I'll be ............................. Andrew
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2016 at 6:46pm
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Thanks Andrew, that's really useful to me. I'm tempted to take a punt on the IQ2. Currently, I'm using between that and a Nagaoka (probably the MP300). I had an MP10 a while ago on another table and I liked it - it had a very black sound and didn't sound strident the way the 2M Black does.
(Funnily enough, I had my iPod on this afternoon while decorating - connected to a Vita Audio
R2i DAB radio/iPod dock which has a lovely mellow sound - and one of my 'drops came on shuffle and my first thought was "God, that CD really is quite shrill" until I remembered I was listening to a needledrop :). )
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: Drewan77
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2016 at 11:10am
Paul H wrote:
T...one of my 'drops came on shuffle and my first thought was "God, that CD really is quite shrill" until I remembered I was listening to a needledrop :). ) |
I think you need to proceed with caution Paul because my 2M Black was not shrill or harsh whereas I recall another forum member claiming that he heard an 'ear shredding' IQ3 demo at an audio show. On the other hand, all the Nagaokas' I have heard were similar to the way you describe and may suit you better.
Turntable/arm/cartridge/system matching can be an act of faith and it's frequently frustrating.
------------- Older than I once was, younger than I'll be ............................. Andrew
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Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2016 at 12:10pm
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Thing is, I struggle badly finding the right words to describe sound and, perhaps, "shrill" wasn't the right word. What I'm hearing is this:
the mid range sounds, in comparison to a CD pressing of the same material, quieter, flatter. It sounds fine in itself until I compare, at which point, it just seems to lack presence. This would be fine and dandy except that the Black's accentuated highs seem to draw more attention. That is, I notice the highs more than I notice the mid range. If the Black had more muted highs, it would probably be fine.
This is probably not a fault of the cart, it's just its sonic signature, and I'm too sensitive to highs. Maybe I should send you a needledrop so you can judge for yourself and see if you're hearing what I'm hearing.
I appreciate your advice about proceeding with caution: I don't have any means of auditioning carts in any meaningful way so, as you say, it really is an expensive act of frustrating faith.
The thing is, so many people say so many wonderful things about the Black that I find myself wondering whether I'm just not going to find a cart that offers me the sound I like or whether there's something fundamentally wrong with my set up. Part of the reason for considering a change is that the Black is, apparently, very sensitive to set up so if I haven't got it right, that might well be a significant part of the problem.
------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.
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Posted By: Drewan77
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2016 at 1:54pm
Strange that you find the tone unbalanced like that, my experience with the 2M Black is a pretty neutral & quite clinical sound across the whole frequency range (a bit 'digital' but not a recessed midrange). Maybe the turntable/arm is accentuating those highs. Have you considered an MC cartridge because treble performance is generally regarded as superior to most MMs? As an example, the Hana carts receive good reports & the range includes high output versions.
------------- Older than I once was, younger than I'll be ............................. Andrew
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Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2016 at 4:54pm
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One further option could be to try your TT in another system then substitute another component? Hi fi sound in Stockton would provide the facilities but appreciate is 2-2 1/2 hours away.
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Posted By: Aussie Mick
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2016 at 2:22am
Hi all, I'm in the same boat with the 2M Black. I find it bright when first installed, but it changed constantly over the first 30 odd hours - not all for the better! But now that it's settled down I find it wonderfully well balanced (for my tastes). It seems seemless with the Reflex M and I don't find any part of the audio spectrum emphasised over any others. Rega RP8 and RB808 arm.
I can't help but wonder if the 2M Black carts you've heard haven't been well set up, or perhaps not run in? The first time I heard the Black in a demo it clearly exposed a huge amount more detail than the Bronze that preceded it, but I found it grating. In fairness, they warned me it wasn't broken in and would mellow out a little. I bought one only after I'd heard the same cart with 100 hours on it.
Mick.
------------- Rega RP8 - Apheta 2 - Accession MC Enigma PS -Solo ULDE (Focal Utopia) - PS Audio M700 - Fical Kanta No2
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