Tone Controls/Graphic EQ?
Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: And the rest
Forum Name: Transducers, Speakers, Mics...
Forum Description: Interested in bi-amping, tri-amping, crossovers, speaker design, miking techniques, EQ - the list goes on
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=262
Printed Date: 18 Apr 2024 at 4:43am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Tone Controls/Graphic EQ?
Posted By: Graham Slee
Subject: Tone Controls/Graphic EQ?
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2008 at 8:24pm
When I was a lad every self respecting amplifier had tone controls.  Then along came the likes of Hi-Fi Answers in the early 1980's and turned every self-respecting audiophile away from them for good!  Or that's what I thought. Recently I've heard sounds of dissent and unrest - a craving for shaping people's own sound-quality/tonal response has started creeping out of the woodwork.  Should it be swiftly put down?  Or should it be encouraged? 
------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Replies:
Posted By: ManuelC
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2008 at 3:46pm
Put down. Very swiftly.
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Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2008 at 11:20pm
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In that case would you think it best reserved for the kit market?
------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: stuxter
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2008 at 7:59am
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Personally, id be happy to give it a go
Dont knock it until you`ve tried it !
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Posted By: ManuelC
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2008 at 10:00am
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I think that the kit market would be the ideal aim, since it might provide anybody who's willing to eq their music a chance (like the Stux above) to try it and then, eventually, let it flow with or without it. (Are their new vinyl re-masters digital?)
But for those of us who enjoy signals clean and linear, it's good to know we can get built gear which does just that.
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Posted By: stuxter
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2008 at 10:21am
(Are their new vinyl re-masters digital?)
Damn right they are !
I think it would be ideal having a `subtle EQ with a bypass
How many albums do you have that have not been perfectly mastered ?
I have a vinyl copy of thin lizzy `live and dangerous` that could do with a little more bottom end. Would be great just to add that little bit when required !
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Posted By: ManuelC
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2008 at 10:28am
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By their I meant the new U2 vinyl represses (...flow with or without it)... dunno about adding anything though Stux... records are so system dependable... |
Posted By: stuxter
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2008 at 10:37am
True, but room acoustics are also system dependable 
You must have attended live concerts where the acoustics are great and others which are awful !
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Posted By: ManuelC
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2008 at 10:41am
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Too true. Which could lead to a whole new topic. Er, my first live concert was Supertramp (boy) in Cascais, a little portuguese town by the coast...
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Posted By: stuxter
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2008 at 10:49am
aaaaahhhhhhh ! Portugal  this could also lead to a whole new topic
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Posted By: ManuelC
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2008 at 11:04am
Will do: Concerts we've seen, places we've been: and given my curiosity about the UK, let's set up the post ! Watch another space...
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Posted By: tg [RIP]
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2008 at 11:17am
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I have always thought Thorsten Loesch to be fairly, shall we say conservative, he gave the predecessor to the Behringer Ultracurve DEQ2496 a pretty fair wrap on enjoythemusic. There is quite a deal of discussion on another forum I browse WRT the Behringer, the DEQX and a lesser amount on the TACT. Most of it revolves around the room correction abilities of these units and the ability to measure speaker response in room is a pre-requisite to their successful use, as is a masters degree in programming I suspect. For any interested in in room response measurement, there is a freeware program called REW available from the hometheatreshack - I think it only goes to 10KHz but that covers most of what I can hear. You will need a mic and stand and an SPL meter, one of the cheapie RS analogue meters also has line out and calibration files are available for it. This could also lead to a whole new topic PS not telling who was on the bill at my first live gig - the acoustics did not matter, the girls (in the audience) screamed so much and so loudly that you could not hear them (the band) anyway, the girls also threw lots of jelly babies on to the stage - that should be enough of a clue. |
Posted By: stuxter
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2008 at 11:18am
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Concerts we've seen, places we've been
Its got a certain ring to it
@ tg "PS not telling who was on the bill at my first live gig - the acoustics did not matter, the girls screamed so much and so loudly that you could not hear them anyway, they also threw lots of jelly babies on to the stage - that should be enough of a clue." Was it GIRLS ALOUD ?
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Posted By: ManuelC
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2008 at 2:07pm
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The mop tops, Stux, the mop tops...
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Posted By: stuxter
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2008 at 2:29pm
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but it says "the girls screamed so much (cheryl cole and her mates) and so loudly that you could not hear them anyway"
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Posted By: tg [RIP]
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2008 at 3:08pm
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Not now it doesn't Manuel gets the door prize |
Posted By: ManuelC
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2008 at 3:16pm
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Thanks TG. By the way, do you play vinyl when it's a really hot day? I have my doubts about generating even more heat from the stylus/vinyl interface... Stux, I don't know if this applies to UK climate...
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Posted By: stuxter
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2008 at 3:40pm
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Re - uk climate, its tough keeping all the rain off my TT
With regards platter levelling, i use a circular bubble level that fits over the spindle, it makes levelling a breeze
ooooops ! wrong thread @ tg- `touche`
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Posted By: tg [RIP]
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2008 at 4:39pm
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Not sure what you would class a really hot day - it does not often hit 40C here - then I tend to shut most things down - computers get too hot to operate properly and so do I Anything less than 35C I do not generally concern myself, though you may have a point, I have heard of some who do not like to play both sides one after the other to allow the vinyl to reform from the heat generated by playing - I am not that obsessive - although I do use LAST record preservative which is claimed to harden the surface layer of the vinyl and reduce wear - I tend to believe that claim. I do reduce the VTF when the average temperature is over 30C in the belief that the suspension will be softer - this would also, presumably, reduce the heat generation markedly. Interesting thought all the same. |
Posted By: Analog Kid
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2008 at 6:05am
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I thought this discussion was to be about tone controls. Already on page 2 people are talking about the weather instead. Back on topic: for me tone controls are absolutely necessary. I am not a purist. There are many albums in my music collection (mainly hard rock and heavy metal titles) where I need to adjust the treble and bass. Without tone controls those albums would be unlistenable. |
Posted By: stuxter
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2008 at 8:10am
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@analog kid
Its good to talk !
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Posted By: tg [RIP]
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2008 at 1:40pm
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Analog Kid, http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0101/behringer8024.htm this is the article I referred to earlier, it addresses exactly the issues you raise. The unit reviewed is obsolete and has been replaced by the DEQ 2496 - it offers many options for programmed preset equalisation curves for either room/speaker correction or the taming of difficult recordings. The learning curve is rather steep but the unit is exceptionally powerful and relatively inexpensive. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2008 at 6:04am
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Here's a comment pro-tone controls... Whilst researching cross-feed for professional headphone use (because we have an enquiry with us at present for that sort of use), I wanted to figure out the relative level of what the left ear hears from the right speaker, and vice-versa. To answer this enquiry didn't require an in depth scientific explanation of hearing and psychoacoustics, just that the enquirer needed some opposite channel "sidetone" in each ear - simple? Therefore "at what level?" was the question I needed to answer. I model things in a mathematical way and the dominant "feed" to the opposite ear is the most direct reflection off the nearest wall. By using a typical room model (a sketch on paper) and knowing the 6dB per doubling of distance rule, I was able to calculate that it's around -20dB, therefore requiring -20dB of "sidetone" from the opposite channel to satisfy the enquirers wish. But what about absorption of the "nearest wall" at different frequencies? Well, a plastered brick wall gives pretty constant absorption end to end (my reference tables said so), and therefore I modelled the required mod to a Solo based on that. It's headphones after all (meaning, the listener will hear as if he/she were in a room with plastered brick walls). However, then I thought about real speakers and different walls. Modern homes tend to use plasterboards for reason of economy. So I looked up plasterboards in the tables. Shock and horror! Plasterboards absorb a ton of bass! In fact, end to end we have a 10dB (approx) slope that favours the treble end! I don't live in a plasterboard home, but the workshop is plasterboarded and it sure sounds bright in there! Therefore, the only way I can think of equalising such a room is using tone controls. That old argument about tone controls upsetting phase can be thrown out of the window if you consider that any frequency dependant attenuator alters phase. Yes, plasterboards alter phase - if they didn't there would be no "slope" to the response. Phase and frequency are inseparable! Thus, the phase IS going to be OUT using a flat amp in a plasterboard room. Now if tone controls were adjusted to counter the "slope" then the phase is corrected! Bang goes another old HI-FI journalism myth! ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Analog Kid
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2008 at 10:43am
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There are two different solid-state amps I am fancying. Both have tone controls. One has turnover frequencies of 300 Hz for the bass and 3 kHz for the treble. The other has adjustable turnover frequencies of either 40 Hz or 100 Hz for the bass and either 8 kHz or 20 kHz for the treble. Which is more useful? Or does it depend entirely on the type of music I am listening to? |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2008 at 4:30pm
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Hmmm, more info please! Turnover frequency and boost/cut frequency are two different things. I'm pretty sure the second one refers to boost/cut? Either that or you've just discovered one of those manufacturers I was on about...  ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Analog Kid
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2008 at 6:59pm
Oh yes, I mean boost/cut frequency, but the manufacturer calls it "turnover frequency" in their product catalog. So anyways, to sum up: the tone controls of the first model boosts or cuts at 300 Hz and 3 kHz for the bass and treble respectively, and the second model is capable of boosting or cutting at either 40 Hz or 100 Hz for the bass, and either 8 kHz or 20 kHz for the treble. Also worth mentioning is that the first one has a boost/cutting range of +/- 10 db, whereas the boosting/cutting range of the second amp is +/- 8 db. Here it is: http://www.accuphase.com/model/pdf/e-450_e.pdf - http://www.accuphase.com/model/pdf/e-450_e.pdf http://www.accuphase.com/model/pdf/c-2110_e.pdf - http://www.accuphase.com/model/pdf/c-2110_e.pdf First one is an integrated amplifier and second one is a preamplifier. Both are 100% solid-state. In each PDF catalog scroll down until the last page where the technical specifications are listed. There you will find the boost/cut frequencies for the tone controls. So which one is more useful? |
Graham Slee wrote:Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2008 at 12:34am
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SOS! Sense of Specs! Making sense of specifications  Question: What is meant by turnover frequency? Answer: The frequency at which things start to change. The turnover frequencies are indicated by the (inner) dots marked fLB (bass) and fHB (treble). Question: What is meant by the boost (or cut) frequency? Answer: The frequency at which the maximum boost (or cut) occurs. The boost and cut frequencies are indicated by the (outer) dots marked fL (bass) and fH (treble). Where the curve starts to flatten out after its "climb" or "fall" The specification for the two amplifiers AK asked about are not written very well. I think it's a case of the manufacturer knows what its doing but isn't very good at communicating it.  This explains that the turnover frequencies - the frequencies at which things start to change - are selectable but doesn't actually say what they are. It shows that the frequencies which maximum boost or cut occurs at is 40Hz or 100Hz (bass) and 8kHz or 20kHz (treble) And the maximum boost or cut is 8dB.  This explains that the turnover frequencies - the frequencies at which things start to change - are 300Hz and 3kHz. And that the frequencies which maximum boost or cut occurs is 50Hz (bass) and 20kHz (treble). And the maximum boost or cut is 10dB. Please say you understand this??? I'll leave it up to you to choose which one to buy based on your new knowledge. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: iamalexis
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2009 at 7:33pm
| i was thinking about tone controls the other day. i'm into the idea of a simple set of tone controls (unfortunately my amp doesn't have any). the reason for thinking about them is because i have just moved into a new place and the room my hi-fi is in gives a bass boost at around 100hz. if the tone controls were to have a true by pass then i wouldn't have a problem using them in my system. |
Posted By: Juliangst
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2009 at 4:23pm
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I like my tone controls wich have a 'tilt' device, though in practice I use them only a little. May I quote from the handbook blurb ( no names no pack drill. but you may work out which make I mean)? : " Our tone controls are quite unlike those found on other equipment. Conventional treble & bass controls have a poor reputation. They serve no useful purpose and are often badly executed. Our tone controls, on the other hand, serve a very useful function by helping to make many an indifferent recording sound more realistic. They are an essential tool for every collector of recordings. the logic of our tone controls is veru easy to appreciate..... The recording sounds over bright? Press the filter button & its sounds just right. It is all so simple...."
As I say I use them only rarely but they can be veruy useful indeed when playing old 78s in conjunction with my Jazz Club.
Incidentally plasterboard is my pet hate.
Comments please Graham? ------------- JJG |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2009 at 6:39pm
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Thanks for not advertising Quad... (it's OK for me to say so) Just trying to stretch my brain as to how they do it... Plasterboard.... such wonderful stuff. Reflects treble and soaks up bass (neighbours just love dismembered bass...). Get bass low enough and loud enough within 100 miles of Elephants and you'd cause a stampede - watch out all those who live within 100 miles of a Zoo! Heck! We all do in England! Just trying to stretch my brain as to why they did it... (plasterboard that is) ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: discrete badger
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2009 at 7:04pm
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One thing you can say about That Company is that it doesn't put headphone sockets on its electronics. Whether this is some historical principle or whether they didn't want to follow what seems to be standard practice (by providing a low quality but functional headphone output) I can only guess. But anyway, aforementioned lack-of-headphone-socket eventually led to me buying a Slee headphone amp, and I know from t'interweb that I'm far from alone. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2009 at 11:43pm
Good man! 
------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Andy9672
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2009 at 11:27am
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I would be pleased to see some sort of tone control available, though not he way that the majority of companies have done it in the past! I dont need to be able to turn the bass up so much that all i hear is mush or be able to increase the treble to a painfull level. I would like to have the functionality to alter the treble and bass by small amounts to counter the effects of different recordings. Having said that i have just converted my loft into a listening room, having been chucked out of the lounge due to the arrival of our first child. All my walls are plasterboard, though i have been able to double the amount of timber work behind the board to give a stronger more solif fixing. Oh and i used a double thickness of 18mm plasterboard on all the walls as well (the ceiling is allready low enough!) and i dont have a problem with the amount of bass i hear from my speakers, in fact sometimes is is a bit much and the ability to reduce this by a small amount would be welcome. I used to work in a concert hall that had the makings of a reasonably good PA system, though without the room correction settings everything sounded awfull. I know a concert hall has more accoustic problems for amplified sound than your average front room but it would be interesting to see how such a device would work on a two chanel system. My surround system (still allowed in the lounge) has room correction built in, works wonders for 5.1 but makes 2 channel sound terrible! ------------- Solo psu1 Rega Apollo AT W1000 Technics SL1200 |
Posted By: ramsay
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2009 at 12:16am
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Your bass problem sounds like it is caused by what is known as a standing wave - i dont want to try and explain as it will get messy. it is to do with how the sound waves bounce off the walls and where they reinforce each other at certain spots in the room - bass wavelengths are a fair bit bigger than most listening rooms! bass trap is a potentially cheap fix - a big couch even! more on topic; i would feel a little lost without any kind of eq somwhere in the chain.. partly because i dont have great equipment (yet) but the abilitly to adjust for having a party where the room is full of people and u can cut through the chat without drowing it out and also it is nice to be able to have some control over the odd (subjectively)less than perfect recording. there are hundreds of equalisers that you can get hold of. graphic will give you control over what frequencies you want to boost or cut in great detail ( 1/3 octave gives you around 30 frequency centres to adjust meaning you can cut any frequencies that are overly responsive or cause a poopy sound.) a parametric will give you a few stages where you can pick a centre frequency to boost/cut and the bandwidth which affects the gradient and shape of the curve of affected frequency.. they all have their own character though and some are more transparent than others. perhaps i have been working too many 11 hour shifts and not sleeping enough for this to be worth reading but i suppose my point is it might be worth your while to do a bit of research into what is out there in the "pro audio" field.. not all of it costs the same as a house and whilst you would have to test it to see what character it may add to your sound. sadly what you hear depends on the room you are in as well as the gear you are using. if you are very keen then i say go for it! fair enough you can spend a small fortune but sound on sound has a section where they go to a random guys house and improve his setup (it is more for recording but same issues affect home recording pervert - reflections, bass response in certain room shapes and sizes (small square ones for instance). they generally show how to make simple and low cost traps and where to position them effectively plus a fairly jargon free explaination or what causes some of the problems in the first place.. best thing is you can disguise your traps/ absorbers etc as pictures (genereally they are wood frames filled with various materials and with various layers depending on what frequencies you want to deal with) some clever people even worked out a long time ago the effects of various depths of various substances have on different frequencies of sound - im sure they are online somewhere so no need for the big book..even better you can get the missus to paint on them and detract from her impression that you sit in that room to escape from her  maybe worth a puruse if your in a newsagent and have a spare 5 minutes.. my eyes hurt.  ------------- Monday you're the pigeon, Tuesday you're the statue, Wednesday you're the pile of sick that mysteriously disappears from the pavement overnight.. |
Posted By: ramsay
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2009 at 12:28am
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ps hope that doesnt count as advertising. please remove the offending name if so.. plasterboard is everywhere due to the massive reduction in labour and time required to put it up compared to traditional plastering or better methods... i say we go back to wattle and daub or turf houses. keeps the heat in a treat and you wont be hearing quite as much bass from next door. no problems with things being "a bit toppy" either.. just muddy as hell. ------------- Monday you're the pigeon, Tuesday you're the statue, Wednesday you're the pile of sick that mysteriously disappears from the pavement overnight.. |