Bluetooth Private Members Club?
Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: Digital Audio
Forum Name: CD, DVD Audio, DACs, ADCs and Digitizing
Forum Description: The existing (and obsolete?) digital formats
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2581
Printed Date: 27 Mar 2026 at 2:30am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Bluetooth Private Members Club?
Posted By: Graham Slee
Subject: Bluetooth Private Members Club?
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2015 at 7:32am
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This is the end part of topic: http://audio-forum.gspaudio.co.uk/2015-road-shows-book-now_topic2479.html which started going off-topic so was moved here. The reason for the title will possibly become clear in a subsequent posting of mine somewhere on page 4 or it could be 5 - I haven't wrote it yet, but will have by the time you read this... maybe  The original post now follows... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unfortunately, because of numbers, or the lack of them, It might have to happen later in the year, if numbers can be increased that is. All-in, last year's cost £4,000, or £100 per head. To date this year it's roughly £250 per head. Being a "cottage industry" concern the money in-effect comes out of my back pocket, in other words, I took £4,000 less in earnings to do last year's (and I'm in a very similar earnings league as most people reading this). The UK HiFi industry in general isn't doing too well of late, in fact, with one or two exceptions (and I mean just one or two), it has been doing rather badly with many companies reporting (to company house) considerable losses in earnings since 2012-2013. In one case a rather large well-established HiFi distributor and brand owner has seen its £5m company worth in 2010 decimated to £0.6m in 2013, and is having to resort to overdraft borrowing of £0.25m. I cannot tell you about the global picture as only the UK is transparent regarding its businesses. We did a lot better and actually increased our company worth in 2014 to the highest it's ever been, in fact nearly half as much as a couple of long established high performing UK HiFi companies (one a distributor - the other an amp manufacturer). Company worth or book value, as I well know, is of little use to anybody else other than the company who owns it, and when it fails to keep up its turnover through falling sales, it's book value is shrapnel. Who else wants its stock? Vultures may offer 10% of its value. I see the HiFi industry teetering on the edge because it and the younger consumer have failed to engage with each other. It's remaining customer base are the older generations, and at the top end? Well, nature takes its course, and that's where the industry is headed for oblivion IMO. So, I can see fewer and fewer people are taking an interest, and that's reflected in the uptake of my roadshow offers. For the few who took the trouble to book a pass, I'm sorry but at this time it really is a non-starter. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Replies:
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2015 at 8:38am
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Sorry to hear that Graham. I understand though and most definitely wouldn't want you to go under because of this (hang the competition). Are there any other road shows that are confirmed this year? I don't mind travelling. Edit: Just a thought; would a GSP portable music player be an "easy" (relatively) undertaking for you? People seem to be willing to spend £1k on those nowadays so could that be a worthwhile concept? You don't have to reply, I'm just thinking out loud.
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Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2015 at 9:00am
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Back when I used the Bitzie, I also suggested the idea of a Graham Slee Digital Audio Player of his own design. Nice idea but the time/money investment probably wouldn't be worthwhile. "Long live vinyl" are the three main words at the back of his mind anyway??
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Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2015 at 9:07am
 Sadly you have a good point. I dread to think what "hifi" will be in the next 5 years... |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2015 at 9:14am
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Even more pitiful than it is now?? (GSP exempt of course) I'm getting my real hi-fi "fill" now because I think Graham is probably right when he said that substantial interest in real hi-fi will disappear with the death of the previous generations. Even he won't be around forever so best appreciate him now because once he's gone, he's gone.
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Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2015 at 9:18am
Actually I'm being stupid, of course we know what HiFi will be; whatever Apple wrap up in a "pretty" case and sell to the mindless fools who buy it! Because people think for themselves nowadays, naturally...  Btw, no offence meant to any on here who do like Apple. I've been anti them from day one and they have proved me right in what they achieved (i.e. killing off proper equipment, like real Hifi). Convenient to use and great business strategy, yes, but what are we giving up along the way? "I must buy because Apple tell me to!"
Hmm, I wonder if the Floyd saw that coming too?  |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2015 at 9:24am
I agree Ash. For as long as we have GSP, we need to ensure we "future-proof" our systems!  (You can slip me the fiver later Graham.  )
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Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2015 at 9:29am
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What makes me laugh about the 'Apple culture' even more is that Steve Jobs himself is quoted to have said: "Do not be trapped by dogma, which is living with the results of other people's thinking". Ironic that the following his company acquired are typically led by dogmatic thinking huh. I guess I shouldn't criticize as I may decide to buy an Apple computer in the future, as Windows devices have a mind of their own and Linux just doesn't have the software support. Apply the Steve Jobs quote to the hi-fi industry and it would become: "Do not be trapped by dogma, which is living with the results of other people's bullsh*t".
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Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2015 at 9:35am
I have been wondering whether I should buy a spare Majestic, Solo ULDE and K1000 now and put them all with some Lautus cables in a safe in a deep nuclear bunker somewhere remote as my future insurance policy for after Graham's generation is all gone. 
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Posted By: RichW
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2015 at 10:25am
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Windows devices are generally infuriating, giving the impression that the s/w dev engineers were not given quite enough time to do their job properly - possibly from pressure to meet deadlines, dunno. They're up to Win 10 already... My Dad owns an Apple & it works well but the initial setup procedure was one of the worst I've ever seen. Very poor in fact. Sorry to hear of the poor interest in the Roadshow Graham. ------------- Majestic/Enigma, Accession MM & MC. |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2015 at 10:26am
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It's a shame about the Roadshow, but an understandable decision. I thoroughly enjoyed the Rotherham Roadshow and was quite looking forward to Marlow as others were, but as a group, I doubt that we contribute in eventual sales as generally we already have most of the GSP products we want. It is for many a social gathering it seems. Making the passes valid for all events in then year may have slewed the anticipated numbers as I and perhaps others had not specifically indicated my intention to attend; but then it is not the likes of me alone that should be attending, the purpose being to promote and sell GSP products. Those that are happy to "enjoy" their music through earbuds from miniscule portable devices are going to take some persuading to fill their living rooms or bedrooms with speakers and other assorted boxes to improve their listening experience - too much effort required!! Just a thought, but might "Village Hall" type venues be a more economic proposition, if supported by a few local volunteer GSP devotees? ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2015 at 11:02am
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You're right Ash, that is hilarious! An ex colleague once gave me the comparison of how everything about Apple, from their zealous followers to even the design of their temples/shops seems to encourage an almost religious attachment... I just love the way for seemless integration, you must buy everything Apple so that it works. Really?? Windows has it's problems but I'm still happily rocking XP Pro on a problem-free desktop PC that is (deliberately) kept off of the internet to extend it's life. Just be wary of Apple's "built in obsolescence". Better yet, Graham can use my living room as a demo facility in real-world conditions! I'll even ensure the kit gets plenty of use to keep it ready to go... Seriously though, BackinBlack has a great idea there! |
Posted By: Drewan77
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2015 at 11:39am
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Graham has summarised the situation very well but it is rather
depressing nevertheless, both for the future of true hi-fi and the
interest the younger generations show in it. Most audio shows I visit
are attended by predominantly 40+ age group males and many ageing
60s-70s bands are continually re-issuing the same old material in the
hope of squeezing every last penny from their original but dwindling fan
base i have met several 20-30 somethings in America who have jumped on the vinyl bandwagon, purchased a cheap turdtable (a Crosley or similar) and been so disillusioned with the appalling sound that they naturally preferred their phone, even the in-built speaker. This sort of mass-market gear does the audio industry a great disservice and I must admit that although it comes nowhere close to a good pair of headphones and something like a Bitzie, the earbuds that Apple now ship with the 5S and 6 phones are perfectly listenable for the majority of people Good to hear that GSP had a strong 2014 and I am sure that when his new developments are ready, many on here will do all we can to audition and purchase but as Ian already mentioned, many of us already have most of the GSP products we need ------------- Older than I once was, younger than I'll be ............................. Andrew |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2015 at 11:59am
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I blame the "want it now" generation and how the world has pandered to them. I'm sure that most of the more experienced users on here started out with an "OK" system, saving up and progressing to a mature system. Nowadays they all want it now and so are spoiled with mediocre systems but thinking they have achieved. In the long term though when they finally realise their system is of laughable SQ, what do they have to build up to? All the truly good sounding systems won't exist because they chose mediocre and forced everyone out of business. The popular opinion seems to be towards wasting £1000s on a system for your car. Yes, the more you spend the better it can sound but will it ever sound as good a decent and well set up home system? But if you listen to the rubbish music that they do, what do you need a decent system for anyway?
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Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2015 at 6:21pm
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I think there are sensible youngsters (if they don't mind me calling them youngsters) as can be seen on this forum in the shape of Ash. OK, I know he can be quite "vocal" but I was the same at that age. The difficulty is that HiFi in general hasn't understood their needs or wants. I know I'd very much like to understand them - I was once in that age-group as we all were. Many companies in HiFi however, don't want to understand them - they're too arrogant because they are successful... for the time being. And because the large and influential players in HiFi (magazines and their often pompous editors included) have chosen to ignore them, the younger end reciprocate accordingly. This means that the cottage industry manufacturer has a massive job in being able to communicate with the younger end. We want to make the products that fit their life, and we can make those products, but will they simply be stuck on the shelf to gather dust? That is exactly what they will do. It's not that we caused the problem, but we become part of that problem. We are told we must engage with the younger end socially because that's where the younger end spend their time - on social networks. They search using #hashtags but #hifi isn't going to be a hip hashtag, is it? I did spot Ash's comment regarding a portable music player. They already exist and are called smartphones, but we can make products to work with smartphones. The Bitzie is a wired smartphone device as Andrew has told us time and again. Andrew is basically a youngster in older skin (if he doesn't mind me saying). But attaching the Bitzie to a smartphone is a trifle cumbersome - it needs a USB cable and an on the go shorty cable, as well as headphones and the Bitzie itself. Andrew and people like him will put up with that because of the audio quality and although I don't fly like he does and don't know the rules, I would guess a wired connection on a plane might be better than bluetooth? Bluetooth however is a desired form of connectivity and it seems it is a must have for the younger end. The Head-Fi community mainly prefer wired connections more than Bluetooth but when it comes to casual listening or parties, they often like the convenience of Bluetooth. I guess offering wired as well as Bluetooth would be sensible. Ash, we can do Bluetooth! Although we can't do atpX because like Apple connectivity, a giant licence fee that's beyond a cottage industry, is required - we can go from Bluetooth to SPDIF and reclock it. But can the younger end grasp that? How do we get the message across amongst so much noise? Whatever... we will be doing a couple of Bluetooth enabled devices (instead of some the conventional products we'd planned). We'll do our bit to try and put true HiFi into the younger mind, but whether they'll listen or not, I just don't know. It may be a hiding to nothing. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2015 at 7:53pm
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I'm not a conventional youngster. I like convenience but not at the expense of performance. I've never used Bluetooth before, not even on a phone. I know it's a wireless form of data transfer (short wave radio??) but that's it. I prefer to keep things simple so that performance is not compromised. I greatly value and envy Graham's practical skills in electronics as I would love to be able to produce a small product of my own for driving my K1000. A product without any intermediate cables, one that uses the full size components he deems worthwhile and one that completely cuts out any excess components or circuitry. This is my only way forward from a Majestic-Solo combo; a bespoke electronic circuit board for my K1000, where I would have to build the metal case for it. But until then, I will stick with what I've got.
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Posted By: DaveG
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2015 at 8:27pm
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I don't know if the "young" should really any hi-fi manufacturers target audience. Generalising massively, they have and always have had an entirely different set of priorities. Sex, drink, music, drugs, sex & drink & more sex - probably in that order too. So music is still one of them as far as I can see, they just aren't that fussed what it's played on. And that's fine.. If I put myself in my own 14 year old shoes I was pretty much the same. I was really getting into listening to and learning to play music big time. Only a small (ok...huge) part of that was thinking I might attract gurls if I could play guitar. I bought loads of albums & I couldn't care less what they were played on really. I never had anything that could be called a proper hi-fi until I was around 30. I still maintain that the best I've ever heard "Dark Side" sound, was in my mates parent's best room, the one no one was allowed in, listening (in the dark of course) on their old stereogram.. y'know the sort that looked like a big sideboard & even had a compartment where they kept their best china - in case the Queen came to tea I think. It was stunning.. quite literally. And even now, on my system that cost.. well... a lot of money, it's not as good as that time. I think what I'm trying to say is that as long as music forms part of the growing up experience, which it does, even if it's only on a phone with maybe some Beats cans, then there's a chance that some will gravitate to wanting to replay it on a good system. ------------- Dave Michell Gorbe + HR PSU -> Cadenza Bronze -> SME V -> Elevator -> Accession -> Proprius -> B&W CM6 s2 | Cusat 50 & Spatia cables ->
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Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2015 at 9:25pm
The politically correct way of informing someone that they can be a bit too gobby.
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Graham Slee wrote:Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2015 at 10:06pm
------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: Drewan77
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2015 at 11:37pm
 ------------- Older than I once was, younger than I'll be ............................. Andrew |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2015 at 11:18am
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Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2015 at 2:20am
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OK, by now we're way off topic, but what the... So, I thought I'd report on the Bluetooth connectivity I hinted at earlier, and we've been playing with a device that does analogue out from A2DP (SBC) equiped devices (e.g. Huawei/EE phone), and aptX from Samsung S4's - the devices tried thus far. It seems our device cannot output aptX in data for us to reclock, but will output A2DP (SBC) in data which we can reclock, so we can provide aptX audio but not as "technically high quality". However, as we did on the Bitzie, we can work on the analogue output and try to improve sound quality. What we could offer is a switch that offers A2DP via reclocking, or A2DP and aptX without reclocking. Don't know what you think to that? To be able to use reclocked atpX we'd have to buy the uber-expensive licence to unlock the data stream, but I'm afraid to say we don't have the financial resources to do so. Next up I'll try the analogue out into some of our analogue circuitry and have a good listen to find if it's going to be good enough - but does it really have to be that good? The ultimate quality is always going to be by wired connection and we're working on a single on-the-go cable solution that connects device (e.g. the phone) to the products we're considering - much better than the bulk of an on-the-go "breakout" cable plus USB cable. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2015 at 6:34am
Sorry for de-railing the thread Graham.  I used to respect Samsung (the S2 was my first Android phone) but their phone and tablet division has become so much like Apple nowadays! Why do they always choose licence-fee solutions? Money! I look forward to your future GSP "yoof" additions Graham. It would be interesting to see their interest piqued and watching where it leads...
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Posted By: Drewan77
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2015 at 12:28pm
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Graham, I hope you don’t mind me asking but what are you trying to develop here please, a portable Bluetooth device or something else? In my opinion, the ‘normal’ way of listening to music on the go will be by an integrated device like a smartphone or something like a Pono As you mentioned it in an earlier post, I should perhaps clarify my own listening practices: When I travel, the S3/Bitzie/Shure combination is used only on a long haul flight or in a hotel room, like a ‘portable hi-fi’. When at the airport or on a shorter flight, I suffice with the iPhone 6 and headphones, using the Vox player app and listening only to FLAC files. Quality is actually pretty good and this is more convenient than the trouble of linking two devices by cable or Bluetooth etc. Personally I would doubt that many people would do this In a car, the phone already interfaces via USB, 3.5mm jack or Bluetooth and quality is compromised by the car audio but there may well be an opportunity for a Bluetooth interface into a home music system I asked my daughter and a group of her friends at the pub last night and they thought this was a good idea so any visitor could play music easily from their phone. I haven’t researched to see if such devices are already available but it may be worth doing some investigation before committing too much development time and cost Probably worth moving these posts and starting another thread too... (If anyone else wants to try FLAC on an iPhone, the Vox app works and I use another app called ‘iFunBox’ on the MacBook which enables you to add/delete FLAC or other files. I do not use iTunes, AAC/MP3s etc on my phone) ------------- Older than I once was, younger than I'll be ............................. Andrew |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2015 at 1:10pm
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I've a couple of Bluetooth "adaptors" - little cubes with a pair of phono sockets on the back and a "pairing" button on top - so my offspring can easily get Spotify off their phone working with proper systems. These cost around £25. I doubt very much, given the limits BT puts on sound quality that they (or, it must be said, I) would want to pay more. But then they're too young to be bothered by what things cost and I'm too old to want to squeeze high quality out of a wireless connection . . . ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2015 at 7:55pm
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And here's why I called it the Private Members Club... Bluetooth isn't fun electronics - it's big business electronics. It shuns the cottage industry manufacturer and laughs in the face of the eletronics enthusiast. It is yet another get rich quick idea aggressively marketed by those gifted in the higher echelons of University graduate electronics. They may be unable to make great sound with analogue but that doesn't matter in the race for riches. Pile em high - sell em cheap is the buzzword, and we all know where that's made! Some of these gifted people seem to have set up a club where people like me can try very hard to buy their products - but end up being given the run-around. Microchip are one such company IMO. They sell a Bluetooth module for £15 (trade) so manufacturers can add Bluetooth to their audio products. They also sell an evaluation kit. They omit to say that the module in the evaluation kit is different to the module offered for sale (trade descriptions?) We wasted no time (actually about 5 hours - the three of us working together) in finding what a cock-up the RN52 module is. The fully licensed version in the evaluation kit is supposed to be aptX and I guess it is, apart from the fact it will not route aptX to its SPDIF output - only to its analogue output. It will however route SBC to its SPDIF output - not much use if the customer has a aptX S4 smartphone!!! There are several experimenter users on the Microchip forum who can't get the RN52 to output I2S (inter IC sound), and they keep begging Microchip for an answer. Microchip are very quiet - we didn't see any answers from them. In fact, we wondered having set the software up to make the module send its output to SPDIF, why there was no SPDIF output at all - until we realised we were sending from aptX phones. Only after sending from a SBC phone (a cheap EE/Huawei) did we get an SPDIF output. All you get from aptX is the analogue ouput. That's a bit stupid because aptX is supposed to be the bee's knees - the best thing since sliced bread - you'd think the aptX licensed module would output to SPDIF - the quality route - instead of to their crappy analogue 16 Ohm speaker drive output? I mean, whoever heard of driving speakers with an amp powered by a 5V USB bus??? Now, this is the fully licensed aptX module, and that makes the production model RN52 useless for a new product - I mean, who's going to buy a Bluetooth enabled product that doesn't work with a Samsung??? The cost of the lincence by the way, is $5,000... not much really for something that works if you're going to be selling 1,000's, but what if you only sold 100 products a year? That adds £32 in at component level and by the time everybody has had their margin, you can call that £320!!! Even then you don't get SPDIF quality reclocking and Majestic DAC quality from aptX. I'll argue the toss with Farnell for a refund, and that will be the end of Microchip in our workshop. So what else is there? Promises perhaps - potential maybe - or we could now be in "sim world". It would appear that way because Blue Creation, although making a suitable Bluetooth module complete with aptX licence, don't have any sales staff or technical staff at their Cambridge rented workspace.... Maybe the real activity is somewhere else? I guess it must be in China because you can't get any sense out of anybody regarding Bluetooth in the UK. And that tends to suggest something to me... that until we are able to announce we're doing Bluetooth, that every so-called British manufacturer of Bluetooth audio products is telling quite a big fib! There is no way they're made in the UK! ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2015 at 8:41pm
| Am I the only one here who doesn't care about Bluetooth for music reproduction? Not even a little bit... |
Posted By: DaveG
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2015 at 9:54pm
No Ash you are not ------------- Dave Michell Gorbe + HR PSU -> Cadenza Bronze -> SME V -> Elevator -> Accession -> Proprius -> B&W CM6 s2 | Cusat 50 & Spatia cables ->
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Posted By: LOINER
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2015 at 10:00pm
I couldn't with any certainty tell you what Blue Tooth is ------------- STUART SOLO ULTRA LINEAR DIAMOND EDITION LAUTUS DUAL MONO 1.5M INTERCONNECTS GRAM AMP 2SE |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2015 at 10:59pm
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The devices likely to stream via Bluetooth are not primarily high quality audio devices. Was Bluetooth ever intended to stream high quality audio? Silk purses and sows ears come to mind. It would seem that if the objective is to raise awareness of high quality sound in "younger" people (or should we say purchasers), then a different approach is needed. A Bitzie type device with WiFi or airplay style connectivity to allow streaming? ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2015 at 11:19pm
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While I also agree that bluetooth isn't for me either, a "successful attempt" (better sounding than anyone else's) could open the way for younger GSP clientele. I would love to see that for Graham and it could spark their curiosity into existing, "wired" hifi (essentially a self funding advertisement campaign) as WE all know that Graham would never turn his back on proper hifi. After this, I foresee GSP single-handedly saving the hifi industry, buying out all the competition and probably bringing about world peace while he's at it. It doesn't have to happen in that order but you get the idea. Ok, I'm losing it.
 Some of the above was actually meant to be serious though... |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2015 at 11:26pm
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BackinBlack - I'm with you there about WiFi, I was thinking the same yesterday! I assume NFC can only transfer files rather than play music? What about a different wireless frequency where the adaptor plugs into your phone (allowing for charging as well) and then streams in a higher quality?
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Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2015 at 7:54am
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Whether it's Bluetooth, Airplay or WiFi, it is still wireless conectivity, and each one is a development to win customers from its competitor. This is NOT HiFi - IT IS BizFi !!! If it was not BizFi then I could easily sell you my own version of wireless connectivity (if it existed)... No, the world doesn't work that way. Success is measured by membership of the "right" club. If you're not in, you're out! So which integrated amps are selling well? Those with some form of wireless connectivity!!! Such that folk can play music from phone, tablet, phablet, watch even. The point I am making is that for a small "cottage industry" to get that technology is the opposite of easy. It is a closed shop! A private members club! A privelege of the wealthy - those with the capital to spend lots of cash with the only people who understand how its done - the Chinese! ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2015 at 9:21am
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Maybe I need to substantiate my closing sentiment in the above post... Around 15 years ago I was working sub-contract to a contractor for a well known British semiconductor manufacturer. The job was preparation of exhibits for a big international Expo. One of the exhibits was the companies class-D amplifier technology. Another exhibit was an interactive infographic display which had to highlight features randomly by lighting up sections of the display, until the visitor pressed a button to "take the tour". I attended meetings at the Oldham HQ so got to see the inside of the works. There were silicon production labs (where the silicon of things like transistors and microchips was made) which were mothballed. In the meeting I recall one of the top highly paid engineers ("inventors") commenting that he couldn't work out how I'd done the infographic display electronics, which I found very strange. When it came to making the exhibit of the class-D amplifier technology I was simply given a built PCB of a class-D amp - no data - nothing! I was expected to make it into a working amplifier! I didn't even know what voltage it worked on or how much current it required - or even how many watts it did! It took phone call after phone call, talking to different engineers who'd worked on the project, to build up a picture of how the thing worked. Eventually I had to take the plunge and build it a power supply that I hoped it worked with. Luckily it worked and it didn't blow up. It could then go on to the set-designers who made it into a giant "ghetto blaster". My other input was automating the control of the mechanics of the set via RS232 from a "basic" computer terminal. My hourly rate was £7.50 per hour. I don't know what the "boffins" of that company were getting paid for the little they knew! The mothballed silicon labs were the obvious clue. They'd given the country's intellectual property to some Chinese outfit who knew exactly what they were doing, so it didn't matter if these highly paid graduates in the UK had a clue or not - the components got made by the Chinese for Chinese manufacturing plants to consume - the money got made!!! It's exactly the same for a British engineer trying to implement wireless technology in British made products. Nobody in the country has a clue - the data sheets are written in "nonce" language probably by a good translator who hasn't a clue. Customer support is non-existent, and that's because it isn't needed over here - because it's all made in China. Therefore, should a product actually be made here, the bastardisation technique of incorporation will most likely have been used to achieve it - how else could it have been done? One day the population of the Western hemisphere will wake up and see something. I guarantee they will not like it very much at all! But it will have been of their own making. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2015 at 11:35am
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You paint a bleak future Graham but sadly, it is a very realistic one. If only we could go back in time and stop the profit-based thinking that got us to this point! I guess all that's left is make the most of it until you decide to pack it in and then watch the system implode when China pulls the plug on the rest of the world.
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Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2015 at 7:35pm
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I don't understand all these technologies, but I think that Apple's AirPlay is now open source. Even my Raspberry Pis running Rune are AirPlay enabled. I haven't got WiFi dongles for them so my use of AirPlay is over Ethernet. Where's the big cost in adopting AirPlay? I'm sure I'm missing something. ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2015 at 4:47pm
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AirPlay is for Apple only though isn't it? What about DLNA? I also don't understand the different technologies either. Following on from Drewan77's comment on page 4, in my experience few youths can be bothered with the hassles of proper hifi via the traditional route. Why else would there be growing business in "high res" portables costing up to £1k? To me that is ridiculous but "hifi" is more personal as lives are different now. People live at home longer, travel further for work, etc. People use headphones when commuting to block out the world while playing games and using social media. And the amount of cars I see around London where the lonely occupant has headphones in but isn't on a call? Couple that with most vehicles having an AUX in now, it sets a pattern. Those sorts of things can make a £1k portable player (seem) better value than a £500 hifi. And when they need music to go social? They have poor quality (and shockingly expensive) wireless docks and speakers which make do as the need for quality is drowned out by friends, bass thump and excessive booze. I don't know many on here but it is my belief that Ash and I are two of the youngest in the forums, if not the youngest. It strikes me as significant that while we have different living circumstances both of us have separately proposed the idea of a portable player, haven't got into vinyl and rely on headphones for our main music listening. (I know he'll correct me if I'm wrong ) A phone is no good if the battery dies after 5 minutes (most youths will self-combust without access to social media like TwitFace or Booker) but if you can make it do less and therefore stretch... I can't think of many who own iPhone's but I know many who have iPods as well as an Android phone. But nothing could be better than plug & play, drag n drop (no iTunes!). I would like to think I understand the problem for the cottage hifi industry, but I haven't seen an Astell & Kern hifi or an Arcam portable music player... I know it's BizFi but even hifi was before GSP got involved. But is it worth the risk and expense trying to beat the big boys by looking to the future users who have been overlooked?
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Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2015 at 7:52am
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We can only make what we can afford to purchase. We can only make what we can see. We can only make what we can pick-up with our fingers. So Apple have done something that doesn't need to be licensed from them in production? I am both very surprised and shocked! The consumer must think that the electronics engineer is superman. Each new idea that comes along is shrouded in secrecy until the magic word - money - is mentioned. After exchanging money (which includes them asking for a valid VAT number), these companies will then share their data. From there on in there is a steep learning curve, as well as the consideration as to if it's doable with rudimentary jigs and soldering irons, and if we are able to configure our computers to enable software programming of such devices. But I doubt very much that anything is licence free if the resulting product is made for financial gain. If you don't have the resources of the average SME (classified as having 50-100 employees) - we are just 3 engineers - you very often have just the one stab at it. So rather than trying to do it all - which is impossible for us - you choose what you think is going to be the most widely accepted one. In our case that is Bluetooth. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2015 at 8:15am
| I'm not a normal youth though and at 26, I'm almost old anyway. I chose not to pursue vinyl any further due to high cost and very limited personal space. I have no concern for the electronic gimmicks of my era. I only started spending lots of money on hi-fi so I could enhance my enjoyment of music on the computer. This is where I accepted smartphones and bought one. I am very behind the times but I only buy what serves an important purpose or more than one. I like small and high quality, but not if the small size leads to compromises. That would be like going back from a fully opened out K1000 to an in-ear ER-4S, where the difference is enormous. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2015 at 11:05am
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I completely understand that some will flatly refuse to buy a product because it contains something they do not need or want, but market research suggests that such buyers are in a falling minority. To obtain only the exact wanted functions suggests a separates system, yet Ash also wants to simplify and suggested a music player. That doesn't join-up in my mind. It was the same with tone controls. A control preamp would have to be split into its constituent parts to please all, but then it wouldn't please all because to get all functions - which some would want - would result in a mess of boxes and cabling. As I have found, it is very costly indeed to satisfy the wants of those asked about a particular product idea, and the resulting sales of catering to the widest possible wants, is quite disappointing. I think it will end up "as it was in the beginning it will be in the end" for me. I'm not too worried about that because I'd simply take semi-retirement and potter about for those who really care, but I just think of all the effort my two engineers have put in, and they've quite a few years to fill in yet. So, maybe I'll take a last stab at doing a "Slee version" of something like a NAD D3020... ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2015 at 12:00pm
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Gone are the days of getting just/exactly what you want; everything is about compromises nowadays. My suggestion for a portable player was purely for travelling purposes, for those who don't have/want hifi at home but would benefit from "hifi" while on the go as more time is spent at work than at home today. But I acknowledge that this is likely an impossible undertaking for GSP. I had to check NAD's site to see what it was. Are we talking about a multi-input, stereo Proprii with inbuilt headphone amp and (possibly) DAC? Now that would be interesting!
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Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2015 at 12:30pm
You forgot the phono stage... Yes, basically that. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2015 at 12:48pm
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I know it's something to do with vinyl so I forgot about that. That sounds fantastic Graham, I'm glad my headphones have been delayed now! A headphone amp that can run dynamics, planars or just speakers... I'm definitely interested. I'm not sure how "energisers" work but would it be possible to make it run electrostatic headphones too? That would make it an all-conquering headphone amp... Eat that head-fi! |
Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2015 at 1:00pm
Read this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrostatic_loudspeaker - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrostatic_loudspeaker and you'll understand what the "energiser" is for. Electrostatic headphones run on exactly the same principle, only done physically on a smaller scale. So to answer the above quoted question the answer is not going to be in positive terms |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2015 at 1:23pm
Correct!  ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2015 at 4:51pm
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Perhaps Graham Slee Projects should consider becoming a company that allows the customer to customize their own product/s extensively. Just provide several standard aluminium case sizes and then transform all of these electronics ideas put into Graham's head into printed circuit board separates, which are purchased by the customer. The customer can then make their own system, as long as they are instructed which parts should not be placed in close proximity to one another and which parts of which boards should be earthed to the case.
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Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2015 at 8:24pm
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The size and shape of many of our products wasn't an accident. They were made so the boards could fit a sub-rack system. That was taken a step further by fully enclosing a Gram Amp 2 which could slot into a sub-rack case, and the idea was to produce a number of similar designs. Those would have done exactly what Ash suggested above. Unfortunately the public either completely ignored it or it was beyond their imaginations.   I had been working through the Studer catalogue when in broadcast audio because the then MD wanted to produce a full range of studio audio products that could be modular built into a single "crate" to fulfil particular purposes. When I set up on my own I had this crazy idea that the HiFi customer might want studio quality gear in his/her own home. Like I say, it was a crazy idea - HiFi isn't about that. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2015 at 10:07pm
| Well I wanted top studio reproduction in my home so that's why I ended up buying from you and nobody else. It really was a no-brainer; I don't give a crap what others say about the specifications. I would have liked to have been able to pick and choose what electronic PCBs I bought from you but I guess I will just have to be grateful that I had the chance to buy the Majestic and Proprius at all. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2015 at 8:46am
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Ash, I'd love to do it, but right now it would seem there is only you interested, and in this world-system of things it requires a few hundred just like you for it to happen. There may well be a few hundred just like you, but the noise is too-loud for them to ever know. Thrown into the internet way of marketing 16 years ago (1999) I soon found that to get noticed was very difficult indeed. It relies on DUMB "robots" - yes DUMB, that's what Google et al are, DUMB. Absolutely crap at finding what you want (as researchers know), so from a marketing point of view they're even worse. Add to that social marketing - what a joke that turned out to be! A load of star followers only interested in gossip - take a look at the magazines in the local supermarket if you don't understand. You can't find specialised stuff on social marketing. You can find loads of selfies though! Specialist magazines don't give a damn. You'd think their editors might consider why more and more of their print runs get pulped? It's because they go for the glitz - just like the social sites and the common crappy magazines on the supermarket shelf - people are more interested in Corrie stars intimate secrets!!! (and the equivalents in other parts of the world) It's a bleedin' miracle we've been in business this long! ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2015 at 8:52am
 Do you mean that Graham? Put me down for one, please! We can take the innards as read, but the casework design is going to be critical for this kind of product IMO. It'll need a remote of some sort too, I think. New thread needed? ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2015 at 9:03am
I haven't seen the NAD in person but I'm not too keen on the upright design; seems a tad too unstable for a "desktop" amp. I could just see the cat knocking it over. Or worse, my wife.  Unless it's stable of course.If remote control circuits affect the sound quality, what about bluetooth control? Or an optional extra? I don't need a remote but if it doesn't affect the sound, I don't mind. |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2015 at 9:24am
Throw the kitchen sink at it and include wifi, ethernet and a streamer with remote control phone App. (But maybe this is a bridge too far . .  )------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2015 at 9:53am
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Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2015 at 10:44am
Definitely a new thread needed. I look forward to following it as well as the preamp and new phonostage threads, which seem a bit quiet of late. ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2015 at 2:10pm
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Remore control on volume only - that's as fas as I'll go, plus I've a box full of <ALPS> motorised pots to use up... (emphasizing the name ALPS here because ALPS sell products that ALPS pots are in because ALPS pots are to die for )Bluetooth reception dictates the case style. As the data sheet says: the device must be mounted "top-right" - that suggests I have to make an upright case of sorts. As for WiFi and Ethernet, don't ask: I've seen the circuit schematics and the chips don't lend themselves to our 60 watt "steam" soldering irons and ham fists If anybody wants to start a new topic they're welcome to and I'll join in, but I've got enough to do right now. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2015 at 2:17pm
New phono stage is actually being built etc. As for the preamp, I have a funny feeling we'll sell fewer than we have the Majestic. The AIO (all in one) of this discussion would probably do most of what the preamp would do anyway. We could always do a version without power amps? ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: ServerBaboon
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2015 at 2:41pm
Throw in a USB cooler and make it a Fridge too far. ------------- Steve ------------- Various bits of GSP Kit ..well two so far, unless you count the cables that is. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2015 at 4:38pm
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