FrugelHorn XL
Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: And the rest
Forum Name: Transducers, Speakers, Mics...
Forum Description: Interested in bi-amping, tri-amping, crossovers, speaker design, miking techniques, EQ - the list goes on
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2542
Printed Date: 27 Mar 2026 at 12:44am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: FrugelHorn XL
Posted By: BackinBlack
Subject: FrugelHorn XL
Date Posted: 03 May 2015 at 6:27pm
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I thought this deserved a new thread, rather than adding to the Proprius and high efficency thread. Some pics of the kit and early assembly. One set of panels and one dry assembled speaker  The back  The front  Stuffing for the inner taper section  Stuffing wrapped in adhesive scrim tape to hold it in shape  Stuffing in place  Tape allows drawing right into point of taper  Cabs have now been glued together, more pics later. ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Replies:
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 03 May 2015 at 7:35pm
Great pics, Ian! Look forward to seeing more as you progress . .  ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 03 May 2015 at 7:48pm
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I am also interested in speaker construction Ian. I would like to use my AKG K1000 to help me build a speaker system with the same response accuracy. Headphones just don't give a large stereo field like speakers can. ------------- We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are. |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 03 May 2015 at 8:15pm
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Thanks Bob, I've spent most of the last 3 days sanding, applying sealer, more sanding and more sanding (120, 150, 180, 240 and 320 grade). A great accompaniment to listening to Test Match Special. Now I shall let the dust settle before waxing and polishing and watch the closing stages of the Cricket. Hi Ash, Finding (and making) a speaker that has similar attributes to your headphones will be very difficult. speakers are a totally different aural experience. Whilst the driver or drivers in a speaker could achieve a similar response, the interaction with it's surroundings will have a significant impact, unless you create an anechoic listening room. I think it is this interaction that gives speakers such a different sound/feeling combined with the whole body sensation of sound. Such things as the strike of stick on drum are felt as well as heard, something that headphones will never achieve. ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 03 May 2015 at 8:21pm
I have come to realize that in order to experience the audio recording even more than from a K1000, the performance has to interact with the whole body. Nothing sat on the head is going to achieve that, regardless of design so the natural progression will be to return to speakers. I have a lot to learn yet though but I'm not going to give up on them like I said I would. This is why I kept the Proprius.  I think I'll research some high fidelity drivers, buy them loose and build various enclosures using the Meccano that I have in the loft.------------- We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are. |
Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 04 May 2015 at 11:13am
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Ian, they're looking good. ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 04 May 2015 at 2:04pm
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Ash, A few names to Google for starters on Loudspeaker design: Martin J King, Vance Dickason, Scott Lindgren and Dave Dlugos. Closer to home a phone call to Ivan at IPL would be informative and could get you started at a reasonable budget. Oak-Audio.co.uk supply the MarkAudio drivers I'm using as well as fully built speakers. Hope this helps, although in your internet travels I'm sure you will probably have come across some of these. ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 04 May 2015 at 4:48pm
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I want to first explore what is possible with a pair of single drivers that I will attach to Meccano metal frames, built to sit on my desk. Something that Meccano has that I might be able to take advantage of is that it has small holes across all of the part surfaces, which may certainly come in handy when trying to design an enclosure without audible boxiness. ------------- We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are. |
Posted By: Drewan77
Date Posted: 04 May 2015 at 5:29pm
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An interesting idea Ash although I suspect bass response may be quite thin and unnatural with Meccano Open baffle also avoids boxiness, using more conventional materials than punched steel and is quite easy to research and experiment, even using something as simple as cardboard to prototype Varying the width of a solid baffle around a driver has a big impact on frequency response and I built various low cost prototypes before settling on the final design. However (and this is quite a big one...) this was with the luxury of digital crosssovers, a mic & software to measure the resulting changes each time until I got exactly what I wanted ------------- Older than I once was, younger than I'll be ............................. Andrew |
Posted By: Drewan77
Date Posted: 04 May 2015 at 5:33pm
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By the way Ian and keeping the thread on track - these kits look beautifully prepared. Single drivers should give you superb phase and timing coherence, in my experience the most important factors in a speaker ------------- Older than I once was, younger than I'll be ............................. Andrew |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 04 May 2015 at 6:13pm
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The panels I got from Louis Eastman were I believe some of the first, nonetheless the cnc work is very accurate, only a couple of edges needed light trimming with sandpaper to achieve a perfect fit. The exposed half thickness edges stand a mm or so proud of the front face, which I think is good practice and they are easily sanded back to give a flush front face. Next step is either to fit the drivers and test or complete the waxing before fitting the drivers and testing avoiding having to remove and refit them. Still, that's tomorrows decision and task. ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 04 May 2015 at 6:21pm
The bass will just wrap round and cancel. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Ash wrote:Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 04 May 2015 at 6:52pm
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Okay, thanks. Still going to do it though so that I can witness my mistakes first-hand. Mistakes are as educational as successes, if not more so. ------------- We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are. |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 04 May 2015 at 7:40pm
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Those who never mad mistakes never made anything........ Or so I've heard. ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 04 May 2015 at 7:45pm
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Thanks Ian, I'm looking at the Markaudio Alpair 12P driver pair. Might be a good place to start some listening. I could try a smaller driver though, which may be more sensible for my small room. ------------- We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are. |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 04 May 2015 at 8:14pm
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Ash, from all I've read I think the Alpair 7M or 10.3 might be more appropriate for smaller rooms, however the 12P may work acceptably on an open baffle, which is a very simple arrangement that can give good results. ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 04 May 2015 at 8:19pm
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I'd rather have a larger driver and an open baffle. Not sure whether the Alpair 12PW might be a more sensible choice than the 12P for open baffle. Midbass weighting... ------------- We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are. |
Posted By: phildent
Date Posted: 05 May 2015 at 12:50am
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Go onto DIY.com on the full range forum,Where Dave Dlugos and Scottmoose post.Hundreds of designs and Dave is a great bloke to deal with. I have been building full range speakers for the best part of forty years and there are some things they do that no other speaker can. For small scale work and solo vocal they are sublime but they have very limited sound levels and cannot do large scale or Rock at all. The latest seems to be FAST which is basically a full range augmentad on the bottom by a bass driver. The sweetest I have ever built is a pair of ENabled Foestex 126 en which are nominal 4 inch speaker in a 6 foot double back horn,a Scottmoose design' The smaller drivers seem to be much better,being much sweeter and not beaming as much. I have a couple of CSS 4 inch speakers if anyone wants to give them a go,as well as 2x CSS sdx7 which are as rare as rocking horse poop as they are now out of production.Dave Dlugos swears by them. I also built a pair of Beta test boxes designed by Dave for testing fitted with Audio Nirvana 10 inch cast frames.They beamed like hell ,were very uncouth and my son now has them. The best full range by far is the Jordan Watt Elkona.I have a pair in Townshend Glastonbury cabinets with Townshend original supertweeter and they are sublime.They have the sweetness in the midrange of a full range and will take the roof of the house if you so wish. The cabinet is basically a MLTL. Open baffles seem to have to be absolutely huge to work at all although I am told by Dave that Betsy K's in OB with wings can be fun. Try the Frugel Horns in a corner to extend the horn and although they probably will still struggle with scale they will be sublime 
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Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 05 May 2015 at 9:34am
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Hi Phil, I must admit that I was inspired to try a Full range design by Dave, Scott and Mark Fenlon's contributions on Diyaudio; however I feel that the threads do at times get hijacked and comments did turn quite vitriolic regarding MA drivers. As many will know Mark Fenlon left the forum for that very reason. For those reasons I specifically avoided direct references to that particular forum, I don't feel as comfortable there as here! Over the years I have heard many Fostex (and clones) designs, but their sound doesn't really appeal to me until you get to the huge horns, which for most of us are truly impractical! I built a pair of Jordan based speakers some 40 years ago, remarkable performance for such a small unit. I was tempted to go that route again with the Eikona; perhaps next years project? ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: phildent
Date Posted: 05 May 2015 at 11:32am
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Hi Ian,Yes ,quite agree about the forum but its still a mine of information. The original Frugel Horn with Fostex never really floated my boat but I had some early 4inch MA's in an 11 litre spherical enclosure that amazed everybody that heard them. Will be nice to hear how the Frugek Horn XL with MA's sound and perhaps they are a step nearer to a full range for everyone. 
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Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 11:45am
The FHxls are now up and running. A few pics of the final stages of assembly. Driver aperture, acoustic foam behind driver and Spatia wiring.  Terminal plate on rear.  Comparison to Dynaudio Gemini Initial sound is quite impressive, soundstage is excellent, Bass is developing after removing 80% of front stuffing. A bit more running in required methinks..... A plinth and/or spikes will help, when I get round to it, listening and further breaking in are priorities. ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: Drewan77
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 12:50pm
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They look really classy and quite statuesque Ian, I also like the way the edges are stained. Any full range speakers that I have listened to have excellent coherence and timing and I expect these also excel at that? ------------- Older than I once was, younger than I'll be ............................. Andrew |
Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 1:29pm
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They look really good Ian. ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 09 May 2015 at 2:12pm
Thanks Andrew, Thus far they sound promising, I think it's the good coherence that gives the impressive soundstage. ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2015 at 8:30pm
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Ian, I think it's time to give us an update. ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2015 at 11:07pm
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Agreed. The running in process continues to this day. Balancing the Bass response by adding or removing stuffing has been quite a trial with a little error thrown in. The stuffing in the narrow taper section behind the speaker has been reduced to improve Bass depth, but this has to be balanced by a small amount of stuffing toward the throat to reduce Bass boom/peaks. Initial recommendations for stuffing were, I found, too much; perhaps a function of the type of stuffing used. A small problem is the very narrow land that the drive unit chassis has to seal against, the MA supplied gasket with the drive unit is excellent but designed for a wider land. I have therefore had to fabricate new gaskets to achieve a proper seal which is necessary to to get an adequate and smooth bass response. Today I have also finished waxing the cabinets, at the weekend when the wax is properly hardened I shall give them a final polish before refitting the drive units with revised stuffing. I shall try Lambswool instead of the BAF type I have used so far. Having said all that the performance of these speakers is truly impressive and with some tweaking will be quite excellent; they have a wide range and also do go (rock style) loud, more than adequately filling my 20' x 13' listening area. ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2015 at 8:07am
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Could Louis have cut them differently to be better suited to the supplied gaskets? ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2015 at 10:18am
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Yes, The driver cut out has been taken to the max to allow the driver to "breathe", usually the hole diameter is smaller to allow full contact of the gasket and the hole relieved behind by a chamfer. The revised gasket I've fitted has improved the bass depth and power, there must have been some leakage using the supplied gasket, but I'm still not happy with the arrangement. Further work required, perhaps a supra baffle with the bezel fitted to the driver. ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2015 at 10:31am
Close up of driver cut out, diameter could be reduced to id of mounting hole lugs. The narrow land is about 3-4mm wide. ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2015 at 2:13pm
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It's time for an update. After quite a few early revisions to the stuffing/damping, I'm almost back to where I started. Being mindful of the various reports of how long the MA drivers take to break in I've not made many adjustments over the last few weeks. In the earlier experimentations I removed the BAF wadding below the drive unit in the larger cross section of the horn and replaced it with Monacor wool damping sheet rolled into a tube to line the walls but leave a clear centre. This gave the most even bass, but lower extension was still somewhat lacking. But, this week the bass has quite suddenly improved, the lower registers now have quite a degree of authority. Using the LEDR test tracks there is evidence of bass output from just below 30Hz with real power coming in about 38/40Hz. There seems to be a bit of a "hump" around 70-80Hz, but this could be room resonance. More investigation required, perhaps a little revision of the stuffing in the smaller part of the horn. They are really a very pleasant speaker to my ears. Meanwhile I'll continue to enjoy them and let the drivers develop further for a few weeks and see what develops. ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2015 at 2:41pm
| I'm really pleased with the quality and performance of the Alpair 12PW and 7P MA drivers. I have been considering getting a pair of 12P but I would have to use enclosures and a subwoofer to achieve genuine full-range. I will stick with my original idea of pairing the 12PW and 7P on an open baffle. The 12PW goes really low without any enclosure and I could possibly use more than one of each per channel. Not sure yet but I'm tempted to experiment with three or four 12PW/7P on each baffle for increased sound emitting area. Not interested in headphones (exc. K1000) anymore. |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2015 at 4:19pm
or maybe something like this... Not sure whether the sound would be improved though. More sound emitting area so less excursion required for same dB SPL. Bass would likely have more weight but all are wide dispersion drivers so perhaps their interaction may cause additional peaks and troughs in frequency response. As for phase and arrival times at the ear.... Hmmm... Just an idea...
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Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2015 at 4:50pm
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A multi driver open baffle using so many MA drivers is an interesting proposition. I was surprised at the time my drivers are taking to break in, it does make tuning the FHXL ( or any other type of enclosure for that matter) a little more difficult as the break in process continues. I do wonder how much more the drivers will change. If my experience also applies to the 12PW then the lower bass should only improve with use. That might negate the need for more drivers. Only time will tell. ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2015 at 5:02pm
Beaming will be a problem. More noticeable at higher frequencies. Vertical alignment of the MA7.3s and a crossover would help solve the problem. Not the intention though. Listening tests would highlight the problems. ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2015 at 9:06pm
 Another idea for a desktop open-baffle. Two 12PW and two 7P on each baffle. With the sound radiating area doubled (compared to just one of each driver per baffle), the sound source would be perceived as bigger and more air moved means I can reduce the volume to achieve the same bass weight, lowering the singular driver excursion too. Vertical alignment would help with imaging for a central listener. Low/moderate volume nearfield listening would be the purpose of the speakers.
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Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2015 at 9:51pm
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Just found someone who has done something very similar to what I propose. http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?113498-New-Open-baffle-DIY/#16 *Just bought a second pair of 12PW and 7P, in preparation for some more open baffle experimentation. |
Posted By: Ernie
Date Posted: 20 Jun 2017 at 9:34pm
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Hi Backinblack, I'm resurrecting an old post here. Just building a pair of Frugal Horn XLs myself with Alpair 10.3M drivers. Just wondering about your running in experiences. From your earlier posts it seem like it's might be best just to leave the wadding in place until everything loosens up. Are you even still using them 2 years on?? ------------- There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary and those who don't. |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 20 Jun 2017 at 10:45pm
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Hi Ernie, Yes I'm still using and enjoying them. As I mentioned they do need plenty of time to break in, the recommended low level signal for ~100hrs is a good start, but careful increase of volume for the first 50 hrs or so in the cabinets is also beneficial in my view. After quite a few more 10s of hours they really begin to loosen up and the bass develops nicely. In my room I found that considerably less stuffing was needed than the design suggests in the throat below the driver. I should like to remove some of the stuffing behind the drive unit to see what happens, but as this means removing the driver and reaching down the taper I keep putting it off. If building again I would have a removable panel or top to enable easier tweaking of the stuffing. Let us know how you get on. Happy building Ian ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: Ernie
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2017 at 5:33am
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Thanks Ian, I finished veneering the weekend in ash as I'd like to blacken them 70's style, should look good with the gold drivers. Can't wait to get them up and running now. How've you found listening to a single driver compared to woofer/tweeter cross over combinations? ------------- There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary and those who don't. |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2017 at 9:14am
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The imaging is somewhat better defined and more stable. The apparent width of the soundstage sometimes goes beyond the speakers physical location, but I think this is more to do with the quality of the source/recording and amplification than just the speakers. The Bass does take time to develop, it is not earth shaking but does go quite deep, this is the area where experimenting with location and stuffing will pay dividends. They will go loud, but be gentle at first, it will be better in the long run. Black Ash, that is very 70s and not something that would suit our light and minimalist decor, or so I'm told by SWMBO! ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: Ernie
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2017 at 11:55pm
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Just finished the XLs, plugged 'em in and put some music on. They sound great, can't believe a kit can sound this good. Hell of a sound stage on them. And they'll inprove as I run them in? Wow. ------------- There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary and those who don't. |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 24 Jun 2017 at 4:07pm
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Good to hear that you're pleased with them. No doubt some extended listening sessions are to come, going back through those albums you haven't had out lately. Happy Listening Ian ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: KJFAudio
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2017 at 8:26pm
Actually the cancellation doesn't happen until the front and rear wave fronts can sum and hence cancel which happens a little further away from the driver, there is no cancellation right by the driver, its called proximity effect and is how open backed headphones all work so as long Ash has got them close enough (less than half the diameter of the driver) to his ears all is good. Let's not put him off, everyone want to see a photo of Ash wearing his drivers :) ------------- UK/EU dealer for Mark Audio Drivers and Manufacturer of speaker kits |
Posted By: KJFAudio
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2017 at 8:28pm
Nice to see another pair of these out there. Well done. Stefan ------------- UK/EU dealer for Mark Audio Drivers and Manufacturer of speaker kits |
Posted By: Ernie
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2017 at 11:00pm
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Thanks Stefan, I'm really pleased with sounds I'm hearing. I've no idea how I'm getting so much bottom end and all the highs of a tweeter just no tweeter. Really open sound, the bass notes don't seem to hang around like a reflex speaker either. Makes quite room friendly, just put them in the corners and they sound great. Proac's will be up for sale.   ------------- There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary and those who don't. |