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Auditory Dementia

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Printed Date: 28 Mar 2024 at 7:11pm
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Topic: Auditory Dementia
Posted By: Graham Slee
Subject: Auditory Dementia
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2015 at 1:43am
I have just been reading a "foo busting" debate on the WHF forum, and thought it a rather good read!

Here are some of my thoughts...

Early on in the discussion it is stated that product A may only sound better than product B because the listener has been told that product A is better.

Later on it is stated that our auditory memory is only 4 seconds, and this point is hammered home numerous times. We are told this is correct because science tells us...

So, if a scientist tells you that product A sounds better than product B, then product A IS better... because the listener has been told it is - which is wrong - but right because the person telling you is wearing a white lab coat and has a degree?

Provided a scientist or group of scientists say something is better, then it is better? And if a non-scientist says something is better then it is not necessarily better?

I found from reading the debate that there seemed to be the presence of NLP which I consider to be foo Wink

But, I just realised I'm off-topic before I've even got on-topic, so on with the topic...

Our auditory memory is only 4 seconds. Actually that describes our short term auditory memory. We also have a long term auditory memory, which is 10 seconds!

The above seems odd to me. What is being said is we have two memories and both can be used to remember exactly what we heard. Now, come on, why can we remember only for 4 seconds and only for 10 seconds? How about an intermediate auditory memory of 7 seconds?

Another contributor pointed out that we can tell the difference between a transistor radio and a valve amp. The valve amp will always sound better than the transistor radio, because the two things are relative.

However, a transistor radio is not an amplifier per se, and a valve amp isn't a radio!

Early in my career a duty I had was to record off-air programs. I had the choice of a Fidelity transistor radio or a valve radio receiver. The Fidelity transistor radio had a rear firing speaker which when placed on a desk about a foot from a wall, sounded really good. I prefered it to the valve radio receiver!

The contributor was therefore guilty of telling people that product A sounds better than product B?

But getting back on topic, our auditory memory is only 4 or 10 seconds, but after all these years (40 to be exact) I still remember the Fidelity radio sounded better (to me) than the valve radio receiver.

I phoned another member the other day and he instantly recognised my voice. The last time he had heard my voice was when he visited me about a year ago. Obviously he was lying! Wink

If we are to believe the science, then we will all hear things as if we never heard them before, provided 4, or 10, seconds have elapsed...

And as another member mentioned the other day, often science has to be rewritten when they realise the original "proof" was not proof after all!


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That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps



Replies:
Posted By: discrete badger
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2015 at 7:59am
There was a discussion on this forum a few moons ago where another contributor effectively claimed I was deluded in thinking I could remember the sound of a recording for more than 4 seconds, quoting this same science.

I don't think I am deluded because the effect is reproducible at will, and even not at will (it just happens). I remember which parts of the recording I can hear through good equipment, and the parts I can't hear through bad equipment. If it's a delusion, it's a spectacularly good one.

Scientific understanding evolves all the time, and many people misapply it to circumstances which are different to the tests which suggested the original understanding.


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2015 at 8:06am
Graham I agree with you and everyday experiences like recognising someone's voice or their footsteps undermine the "no long term auditory memory" hypothesis. As music lovers we recognise the sound of different singers' voices, different guitars and amplifiers. And how would we be able to tell the instruments apart in a orchestra if we couldn't remember what a violin or an oboe or a clarinet sounded like? There's a large body of work on how we recognise sounds from the initial moments, the formant.

How did the "scientists" get this far without spotting these flaws? Common sense is a lot rarer than its name suggests.

Edit: I agree with DB's points on new theories and evidence being good, but needing sound application of the theory

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Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: JamesD
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2015 at 8:57am
Let's face it, scientists are always having to modify theories because most of them are based 50% on measurable fact and 50% on what they think or believe. The speed of light in a vacuum is constant... oh, hold on, perhaps it isn't after all...

I know that our brains are clever enough to make up for certain deficiencies (to a point) which could make it difficult to judge the minutest of difference between two systems but all this four second/ten second stuff is questionable IMO.


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Aren't ears brilliant


Posted By: McHolmeM
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2015 at 10:42am
I played a record last night and mentally compared what I heard with what the same record sounded like through the loan Reflex C which I had the use of over Christmas and which was returned a lot more than 10 seconds ago.

HFC in their latest issue might be telling me that the phono stage I currently use is very good but I know of another that sounds better IMO.


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2015 at 1:47pm
At this point I'd like to veer off-topic for a while and look into cable direction...

And I do this at the risk of the "extremists" getting highly aggitated.

There is also a Rational Wiki page about Audio Woo, which reads as if it's someone's personal opinions, and I'm sure this will upset him too.

However, when studying maths (at Durham, by the way), we discussed domains, and how mathematical arguments may, or may not exist outside a particular domain.

I state this before introducing a subject known as HVDC - high voltage DC power transmission, because the know-all's will immediately dismiss it in their haughty way, as being in a totally different domain. Remember, I stated that we'd discussed how mathematical arguments may, or may not exist outside a particular domain - which shows a possibility of what I could crudely call "what's good for the goose is good for the gander".

Taking a look at page 19 here: http://www.pesicc.org/iccwebsite/subcommittees/subcom_c/Presentations/2009Spring/C-4-HVDCTransmissionCableSystems-Zaccone.pdf

The following can be read: "In fact, an Extruded Insulation (generally PE based) can be subjected to an uneven distribution of the charges, that can migrate inside the insulation due to the effect of the electrical field. It is therefore possible to have an accumulation of charges in localised areas inside the insulation (space charges) that, in particular during rapid polarity reversals, can give rise to localised high stress and bring to accelerated ageing of the insulation."

The Rational Wiki article simply says: "Some audiophiles believe that a cable will perform differently depending on which way it goes (e.g. which way the electrons move along the cable). Naturally, this is completely bogus, because cables are not made of diodes."

As an engineer with 40 years under my belt, I am not thick! I know that cables are "not made of diodes"!!! Most customers also know that - they are not thick either!

Returning to the HVDC piece we can see that there are other factors such as "space charges", which is nothing to do with the metal of the wire or its capacitive coupling to the return wire, or shield, depending on what cable we are referring to, or its inductive properties.

Now, I'm sure the next criticism would be that HVDC, even if this worked at lower voltages, is DC and not AC, but HVDC is AC converted to DC without smoothing (which would need lots of farads of high voltage capacitor - good luck!). Therefore it has a waveform, and it's also low frequency, which might be 50/60Hz, and those frequencies are audible frequencies.

But before I'm accused (as I have been), I will say I have never said categorically that cable directionality exists, simply because I have no proof!!! Can they get that through their thick skins?

I can only observe, and this is what I have observed...

The cable we buy has been insulation tested. This is similar in some respects to what is called "flash testing" (a thing we do on PSU1 power supplies as required by our CB safety certification). Insulation testing is an electrical strength test, where it is subject to a high voltage and often that voltage is DC, because if it were AC, it would require more power. Therefore the cable has been "used" at HVDC!

Every new reel of coax has a test pair of terminated interconnects made from the first few feet of cable from the reel.

I am then given it to find out if I can honestly tell any difference by reversing the cable.

On some ocassions it is a quick and easy task to identify a direction that "arranges the tempo's of a set piece in equal time order", and one that doesn't.

Here it may take more than 10 seconds to reverse the cables (so really I suppose we're not far off-topic).

On some occasions it is very hard to tell any difference at all.

Once that test is done, the cables are marked to show the direction of what in my opinion is the better of the two, based on the direction of that sample.

It has been noted that with an "aged" cable that there is no noticeable difference as to direction - in my opinion - and from the (good) feedback we get, customers tell us that the directionality has "faded".

I suppose it could still be argued that we're all making this up?

But going back to the "space charges" (the accumulation of charges in localised areas inside the insulation) due to HVDC, and the fact that the new cable was subjected to HVDC (the "hipot" test), then it could be argued that these accumulations of charges affect the rapid polarity reversals that an AC audio signal actually is?

Maybe it could - maybe not? I am not forcing this on anybody!!!

And as the cable directionality seems to fade with time, then these accumulations of charges in localised areas inside the insulation (due to HVDC???), could be dissipating?

Having dissipated, the cable no longer has any directionality.

Then, at that point, cable directionality ceases to exist, and because of that, it would be illegal to sell a cable as having directionality - AND SO WE DON'T!!!

But then it raises a possible proof for something else....

Cable Burn-In!

So perhaps it is time now to head for the hills, before the "extremists" get us with their torches and pitchforks?

The thing is, it's a thin line between science and woo/foo, and the sooner people start understanding real woo/foo from what has an element of truth, the better it will be for all!


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That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: suede
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2015 at 3:58pm
It's been well over a month since last I listened to any vinyl; using my turntable, Reflex and Solo UL, and I can very clearly remember how these records sounded like and compare this to the same albums I'm now listening to in digital form through my new Bitzie. That the audio memory should only be a mere 4 seconds is obviously complete hogwash and any sane person ought to realise it. Otherwise what would be the point of HiFi? Noone would remember what reality sounded like anyway.

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Proprius, Reflex M, Solo UL, Bitzie, CuSats & Spatia
---------------------------------
Johan


Posted By: DaveG
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2015 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by Graham Slee Graham Slee wrote:



.... And as the cable directionality seems to fade with time, then these accumulations of charges in localised areas inside the insulation (due to HVDC???), could be dissipating?

Having dissipated, the cable no longer has any directionality.

Then, at that point, cable directionality ceases to exist, and because of that, it would be illegal to sell a cable as having directionality - AND SO WE DON'T!!!

But then it raises a possible proof for something else....

Cable Burn-In!


It's an interesting subject, some cable manufacturers argue for directionality, some against. I can see no harm in suggesting directionality.. it's not like you are charging a premium for this advice or touting it as some revolutionary discovery. People are free to ignore it (or benefit from it). 

I found this, from another cable manufacturer of interest as it seems to echo some of the things you have touched on. Especially the bit about directionality fading with time... or in other words burn in. While they don't claim directionality as such, to this layman they do seem to be making a plausible case not changing the cables around once they are settled in:

"When a cable transfers power from an amplifier to a speaker it does so by means of an A.C. current which flows within the going and return conductors. Each conductor 'experiences' a continuously reversing current flow.

It may be possible that cables using certain dielectrics or conductor materials can be directional as a result of the electron flow affecting the resistance of the cable. It's certainly true to say that the sound from Censored cables improves with use. It may be that the metal or more likely the dielectric adopts a position when charged and that as a result, current finds its route of least resistance. If a cable has been used in the same direction for a number of hours, the sound quality improves. If it's then reversed, the sound reverts back to the original sound before use and eventually improves again with use in the reversed direction!

 With the exception of some of our interconnect cables which are wired in a pseudo balanced configuration (and are therefore directional by virtue of the way they are intended to be used), our cables when new from the carton should be considered non directional, but should not be reversed following use or burn in".



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Dave

Michell Gorbe + HR PSU -> Cadenza Bronze -> SME V -> Elevator -> Accession -> Proprius -> B&W CM6 s2 | Cusat 50 & Spatia cables ->


Posted By: phildent
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2015 at 4:51pm
An interesting discussion with the potential for some witch burning.
I feel,as with a lot of science,that is used inaproppriately.I am sure it can be proven scientifically.However,I am sure this is not the form that we remember music,voices etc
Unfortunately people misuse this science when they are merely too ignorant to understand it.
An analogy is NICE(National Institute For Clinical Excellence) having had to put up with them in my clinical life.Science very poorly portrayed to a political or economic end.It is quite clear to anyone with hands on medical experience that they are obvious buffoons.

If we are open minded we can all decide for ourselves about cable direction,in fact having read Grahams postI am now even more convinced.
I have over the last couple of days tried my system cables various ways round to find I actually cannot tell the difference but on reading the post about age realized all my cables are several years old.
I have some new interconnect cables which I have never tried but on reading the above both my wife and I can clearly tell which way round they were.That convinces me.
I do not understand most of the technical explanations that people on here are kind enough to share but since the results of particularly GSP's application of science agrees with my ears I consider someone there knows what they are doing.
Incidentally Graham there were obviously two Yorkshire men at Durham at that time but mathematics was way beyond me.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2015 at 10:11pm
I like this topic, please keep talking everyone. I personally feel that Graham raises some very fundamental questions that others should not discredit. I am very interested in the whole cable directionality and burn-in topic. Uneven charge distribution across conductors could explain audible differences and why some listening observations are typically inconsistent over time.

Too much science is based on statistics, I'm afraid... and statistics (it's typical interpretation anyway) is the bullcrap of Satan! (to use Graham's own way with words). The real world is not the same as the mathematical models so statistics have limited validity IMO. For scientists to claim that people can only have very short-term memory of a frequent experience such as listening to music is actually quite a blinkered and misguided point of view IMO.

Although I will say that memory of past experiences are not always completely accurate. Depends on how objective the original experience was. This is why when I compared all my headphones a few months back, I had them playing side-by-side during my comparisons so my memory was fresh and the differences were very clearly heard. During listening, I also didn't rush to conclusions, I listened to different music genres, I listened on different days whilst in various moods and I varied my listening time between switching so that I heard differences after both short-term and extended listening. I simply didn't trust myself right away! I spent a careful amount of time analyzing so I could put a lot of trust in my final conclusions.


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We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2015 at 10:48pm
I wonder what the scientific research was about, before being 'applied' to hi-fi?


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Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: Drewan77
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2015 at 12:05am
Earlier in my life, it would be more appropriate to call this Auditory Paranoia….

Equipment reviewers in the rags always seemed to be so sure about what they heard, using a kind of syrupy prose akin to wine tasting & as a young man too weak to resist, I inevitably took the plunge

note at this point: blame the fact that my first Pioneer PL12D, VMS20E, NAD3020 and some early BBC monitors sounded so good together & I was convinced that all you had to do was ‘trust the experts’ (- or maybe it’s that gear really was so good back then)

Anyway here are a few of my audiofool endeavours:

- Floor standers must be ‘better’ than stand mounts (or was it the other way?)
- Special mounting feet block vibration and molecular heat build up (wow ,must have those !, I thought)
- Spend a fortune on cabling and ‘more expensive’ is definitely ‘best’ (WRONG!)
- Mains filtering gear is like having a new system
- A metal and glass rack was meant to be ‘better’ than the sideboard
….’perfect sound forever’ - don’t get me started on that one, all it did was cause me to sell a lot of my treasured LPs in the 80s and then about 15 years trying to filter a tiny mosquito out of my ears
- etc etc

Because I probably spend considerably more £s listening to live music than I even do on media I suppose I was always on a hiding to nothing trying to replicate it but reviewers always seemed to promise just that

Then when I either auditioned at a dealer or at home, all I managed to do was frustrate and curse myself because I was concentrating so hard to hear those same ‘as reviewed’ nuances from this life changing piece of equipment, that I often didn’t notice the music itself. I became confused or just convinced that the reviewer had got it right and then my inner placebo took over

When some of the gear I purchased didn’t really satisfy after a few weeks, i realised that it must be my own foolish mistake by combining incompatible devices together (that’s what the ‘experts’ always said). I was resigned to the fact that I obviously wasn’t that good at this so I just had to trust the experts and carry on until my next upgrade came along

By my forties I had finally given up and decided that I really must have a tin ear - I stopped buying hi-fi mags altogether, stopped dealer demos and only auditioned items which garnered lots of positive ‘user’ feedback on the web or from a dealer I knew and trusted. Listening to music at home for as long as a demo would allow I gradually realised that all I had to do was just listen to the music itself and NOT concentrate on the system.

For at least the past 10-15 years I think I have become quite good at determining when something ‘sounds right’ or more particularly when something in the system is changed and I sense when it isn’t OK. It is quite rarely an instant thing with me and usually takes hours, sometimes a few days listening. It may sound crazy but I can only describe it as a sort of ‘feel the force’ thing and that’s why I sense when a cable directionality or polarity seems to be correct and I certainly knew when I heard my first Graham Slee products that there is something very special going on



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Older than I once was, younger than I'll be
.............................
Andrew


Posted By: RichW
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2015 at 8:27am
I read somewhere - think it was a dealer's mail shot a few years ago, that cables also
wear out with use. I think the idea was that you replaced them after ten years or so.
Can't remember any supporting evidence for this - charge carriers in the metal running out?



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Majestic/Enigma, Accession MM & MC.


Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2015 at 9:07am
Originally posted by RichW RichW wrote:

I read somewhere - think it was a dealer's mail shot a few years ago, that cables also
wear out with use. I think the idea was that you replaced them after ten years or so.
Can't remember any supporting evidence for this - charge carriers in the metal running out?
The evidence would be that the dealer's bank balance was getting low. . . Evil Smile

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Bob

Majestic DAC/pre-amp
Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V
Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50
2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links


Posted By: RichW
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2015 at 9:25am
That's more likely to be the case.
With this dealer's argument, surely any HiFi equipment built with internal cabling, or indeed a printed circuit board 'wears out' after a few years & must be replaced - how nice for the dealer Party


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Majestic/Enigma, Accession MM & MC.


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2015 at 11:18pm
Yes, it's almost admirable to warn unsuspecting hi-fi owners of their peril!

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Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: Dave Friday
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2015 at 11:39pm
Well one amp I'm using is from 1974! I wonder why it still works,and sounds the same as I remember when I use to repair them in the 70 's.

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lp12,oc9mk3,ca610p,krimson40watt pa,kef105.4


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2015 at 9:52pm
I'd almost forgotten what this thread sounded like...

When I played REM's Green this evening, I realised it had been some years since I last played it. Whilst enjoying the songs I noticed backing tracks I hadn't heard before and it generally sounded better IMO. Another example of auditory recollection that suggests the 4/8 second science has been taken out of context.

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Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: abmscopes
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2020 at 1:44pm
With apologies for resurrecting a 5 year old thread !) Regarding the 4/8 second memory thing, i'd always need to refer to the original study to make a proper judgment on the validity of the statement. In context it may well be referring to one very specific circumstance and aspect of audio memory. I seriously doubt the study concluded that people can't remember what music sounds like or indeed what the relative bass/mid/high levels of a particular amp are. I suspect it might refer to less tangible aspects such as instrument placement in a soundstage, which between two phono amps, for example, might be very subtle.
Anyway, it sounds like the kind of study I'd enjoy reading so if anyone has a link to the research please do let me know!Smile


Posted By: Nippithon
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2021 at 8:24pm
Originally posted by abmscopes abmscopes wrote:

Regarding the 4/8 second memory thing, i'd always need to refer to the original study to make a proper judgment on the validity of the statement. In context it may well be referring to one very specific circumstance and aspect of audio memory.

I agree, Scopes. A short-term auditory-memory-test might go something like this:

  1. Subject listens to a three-second sine wave at X Hz and X db-level.
  2. One second of silence, then...
  3. Subject hears the same three-second sine wave, but it's a decibel louder or softer.
Assuming that most people can identify that the second pitch is a smidge louder or softer (if not, use a 2-db difference), repeat the text, progressively increasing the interval of silence. Two seconds, 5, seconds, 30 seconds... Most people, I'm betting, will not be able to remember a one-decibel change for long.

If we were to play a recording of a revving motorcycle, then switch to the sound of a flock of crows cawing as they fly over a straw man, anyone with normal hearing will be able to note the changed sound, even after the passing of years.

But for remembering a tiny change in volume or other subtleties, four seconds might be about right.

Mitch





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