Figure of 8
Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: And the rest
Forum Name: Power Sources
Forum Description: Where the power comes from has always been a hot topic - even more so now with new World legislation
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2393
Printed Date: 27 Mar 2026 at 4:02am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Figure of 8
Posted By: Richardl60
Subject: Figure of 8
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2014 at 11:08am
|
Two technical queries here re the figure of 8 power leads. 1) is there a particular reason for using a two core cable for a power lead? I appreciate the third is the earth but why use a two core? 2) there is accepted wisdom that reversing the figure of 8 does impact on the sound. Other than ones ears is there not a straight forward way of marking the plug ton ensure correct connectivity from the factory or am I being too simple? Regards. Richard |
Replies:
Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2014 at 12:13pm
|
For question 2, I believe it is supposed to have something to do with phase alignment? Something else I am a bit cynical about.  ------------- Kevin European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France. Funkified SL1200 Mk.II, BB3, Firebottle Kin , ADI-2 DAC FS, Modulus 686, PD-S703, Solo UL, Triangle Antal EZ |
Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2014 at 12:25pm
Cynical is healthy, provided it doesn't close your mind. Have you tried it? |
CageyH wrote:Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2014 at 1:11pm
|
I personally felt that the figure of 8 gave a more in-phase presentation one way around compared to the other way. I tried this with the PSU1 of the Solo ULDE. The "incorrect" way seemed to upset the naturalness of the stereo image somewhat (yes, I am being honest and not talking complete bullsh*t). I don't think that it was just me imagining it. People who don't hear it probably aren't listening carefully enough or for long enough, don't yet have enough listening experience to understand what they're hearing or have let a closed mind make the conclusion instead of their ears. Now I wouldn't be sounding confrontational like this if I didn't genuinely believe that there is a difference to be heard; I'm convinced that it is something to do with phase fidelity but I do not understand the science that underpins it. A lot of listeners don't seem to echo my conclusion of the phasing issue with the HD800 either so I guess that its just me?? Maybe people are focusing more on frequencies than they are on phase?? I dunno but I doubt this is just a coincidence. Maybe their listening transducer is simply not transparent/resolving enough for the phase difference to be heard clearly?? But if they're using something like a HD650, what do they expect??  Just my opinion; if you don't like it, please disregard it.  ------------- We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are. |
Posted By: LOINER
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2014 at 2:53pm
Richard if you go to the forum headed INTERCONNECTS FOR TURNTABLE AND HEADPHONE and then click on PSU1 STANDARD CORD Graham replies to OLE on this very subject. I am in complete agreement with Ash on this and the differences can be heard very clearly and I use HD650 ------------- STUART SOLO ULTRA LINEAR DIAMOND EDITION LAUTUS DUAL MONO 1.5M INTERCONNECTS GRAM AMP 2SE |
Posted By: Gary
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2014 at 4:05pm
|
I'm also in agreement with Ash. It was enough of a difference to make me think something was wrong when I had to disconnect and then re-connect after decorating. I've now got a blob of pain on the plug to denote what way round it goes. Neutral at the top of the plug for me. ------------- Solo ULDE, CuSat50, Spatia Links |
Posted By: Aussie Mick
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2014 at 9:26pm
|
"A lot of listeners don't seem to echo my conclusion of the phasing issue with the HD800 either so I guess that its just me?? Maybe people are focusing more on frequencies than they are on phase??" Hi Ash, I think I've read somewhere that the ability to hear changes in phase is not something everyone has. Perhaps explains why some disagree with you? Having said that, I'm a convert on finding the right way around. Mick. ------------- Rega RP8 - Apheta 2 - Accession MC Enigma PS -Solo ULDE (Focal Utopia) - PS Audio M700 - Fical Kanta No2 |
Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2014 at 11:20pm
|
I can certainly hear a difference in which way round the plug is inserted, and my ears are screwed from a lifetime's abuse. For me there's greater focus and solidity to the sound when the lead is plugged in the right way. T'other way round and things get soft and cuddly. I don't do soft and cuddly |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2014 at 11:01pm
|
As above, I agree about this effect with the Elevator EXP and Revelation powered by the PSU1. I think there is a slight difference when doing this with Majestic's PSU1, but it is only slight and probably just my imagination! ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Suggs
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2014 at 7:58am
|
Yes, but what is considered the "right" way round and is it consistent in all systems? ------------- Derek |
Posted By: tg [RIP]
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2014 at 10:48am
|
Remembering previous discussion here on this topic, first raised IIRC by Han (Cyreg), I think that Grahams comment was, that since there was no certainty as to the direction of winding of the transformer primary as he receives them, determination of the optimal polarity of the plug was/is a matter for experimentation, since there may well be variance from one unit to the next. ------------- Tony G |
Posted By: robbiec
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2014 at 12:12pm
|
Trying to understand this, by experimentation do you mean plugging in one way, then turning it upside down? You have two options only, correct? ------------- Hang on tightly, let go lightly. Voyager x 2 | Bitzie | Accession M | Solo ULDE | Enigma | PSU1 x 2 | Proprius x 2 | Majestic | Rega Planar 2 & Exact | Focal Aria & Elegia | Libran | Lautus | Spatia |
Posted By: tg [RIP]
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2014 at 1:02pm
|
Yes Robbie, that is exactly it.
------------- Tony G |
Posted By: Suggs
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2014 at 1:56pm
Thanks for clarifying that Tony...one more bit of fiddling about behind the audio rack coming up ------------- Derek |
Posted By: LOINER
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2014 at 5:02pm
|
Derek I think you will find it worthwhile. ------------- STUART SOLO ULTRA LINEAR DIAMOND EDITION LAUTUS DUAL MONO 1.5M INTERCONNECTS GRAM AMP 2SE |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2014 at 6:35pm
|
Seconded! ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2015 at 8:02pm
|
Dear all, I have now had the chance to 'experiment' with reversing the Figure of 8. Yes (as suggested) there are differences and sure we all hear them differently. I have only vetted this on my Elevator so for but one way the sound was notably more open and forward in presentation, more punchy even. Curiously, louder for the same volume setting (maybe the forwardness!). Not sure I would use the word focused that has been applied but hey what is in a few words! Having settled on this option now I broadly understand the impact of the change, the Revelation should be simple! Many thanks for your suggestions everyone. Richard
|
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2015 at 8:23pm
|
Such a suggestion appeared in Marantz integrated amplifier instructions some years ago. They used a "Euro plug" reversible mains connector. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2015 at 3:17pm
| Further observation, having settled on the Elevator figure of 8 the Revelation appears less conclusive. The PSU is powered down for 15-20 seconds enabling the reversal - how long should the power up be left to provide accurate results - I have left for 5 mins and wonder if the performance is dropping off to confuse the initial results before bringing optimum performance? I believe a 72 hour is suggested but presumbaly when powered off for a sustained period. Any further thoughts guys?? |
Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2015 at 3:40pm
|
I think I remember Graham saying just to pull it out reverse it and push it back in without powering down. I could be wrong. I was once. ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: Drewan77
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2015 at 3:48pm
nb: always best to mute the amp/speakers first too, if you do the swap slowly it may put a hefty thump through the system ------------- Older than I once was, younger than I'll be ............................. Andrew |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2015 at 4:18pm
|
Not to mention that keep doing this will likely cause sparking at the surface of the pins, which may eventually damage/tarnish them. When I tried it, I had the PSU1 in my hands ready, hit the wall socket off, pull out 8 plug quick, turn, put in quick and then quickly hit the wall socket back on. If the equipment has been powered up for many hours already then there is a lot of residual energy held in the cumulative electronics and the capacitor discharge during this short period (maybe about 5-10 seconds for me) will be negligible. The energy stored will rapidly be restored when power is reinstated. Best to try the switch after listening to music for several hours, as the phase difference (IMO) will probably be easier to notice when you find the music less engaging with less natural placement. ------------- We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are. |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2015 at 7:30pm
| Many thanks to you all (again!). You have broadly mirrored what I am trying to achieve - keeping down time to a minimum whilst muting'switching to another input. Just about to power down (again) so better stop typing and get on with the task in hand. Kindest regards . . . . . |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2015 at 10:22pm
|
Hi Richard, we usually "hot-swap" before the capacitors have had chance to fully discharge. The inrush current on the pins won't be much. Graham ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: LOINER
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2015 at 10:32pm
|
I can concur that hot swapping does no harm that's how I swapped mine and my equipment is ok. ------------- STUART SOLO ULTRA LINEAR DIAMOND EDITION LAUTUS DUAL MONO 1.5M INTERCONNECTS GRAM AMP 2SE |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2015 at 2:45pm
|
Dear all again, after several hours of listening and
reversing my figure of 8s independently on my Elevator and Revelation M I have
just about reached a conclusion. I agree with other correspondents to a degree on the subject
that yes there are differences by swapping round but in my system and to my
ears these are very small and in some ways different rather than always ‘better
or worse’ (as my optician asks!!). Anyway I have settled on a combination after trying several
album sides to provide a balanced conclusion. I have another thread also on the subject of the mains to
PSU power supply I did promise to get back on and may well import this in to
both threads. Anyway here goes . . . . As I have said the differences to me in reversing the Figure
of 8 are small. Had I been paying money
for this ‘upgrade’ it would have gone back as relatively negligible in the scheme
of things. I also contributed to a recent thread on feet/supports. I would put the Figure of 8 reversal in this
bracket, though less profound from memory the differing budget feet/supports having
more significant and notable differences. Now on to the cables.
I am aware there is huge scepticism out there on mains cables and silver
ones in particular. I tend to make notes when making changes and after pretty
much a blank sheet of paper before/after/before/after on the Figure of 8s, I
quickly compiled the following. Pure Silver to
standard/supplied mains flex Smaller Gritty Less dynamic Less body Sibilant Less powerful sounding Diffused (yes I did try reversing the F8!) Upper mid peak Constricted/forced Less interesting Bit bright and aggressive Replacing my Silver
cables reinforced this with comments as follows: More open and detailed More natural Wider More body More impact More scale More dynamic More solid Easier listen (in a good way) More poise Taughter bass Sense of power Taken limiters off! Removed layer of mush. More interesting listen! If I was looking to grade these I would score: Figure of 8 reversal +1 Feet/supports +2 Mains cable changes on both PSU’s 8+ (yes it is that big!). As stated elsewhere I am not too fussed whether others have
the same opinions as me or not. I joined
the forum in order to benefit from other peoples experiences and in reverse to
share my experiences. The crux of these comments are: 1)
I have no affiliation to any manufacturer or supplier
other than a satisfied customer. 2)
I am quite happy to speak highly of my experiences and
of the produces or dealers I have received good service and products from. 3)
I am impressed with Graham’s products and will promote
these in appropriate places and do so with my cable provider but as yet have
deliberately not named them. 4)
I do however firmly believe Graham may be missing a trick
here. The wall or HUB to PSU power leads
are something I honestly believe are worthy of investigation. 5)
From my experiences it is unwise to dismiss the benefits
of a well-designed mains cable on the basis of either heresay or experiences of
perhaps those less well designed. 6)
The final process/test I will have is to compare my new
Revelation with stock mains vs my Era Gold with my pure Silver lead. I am pleasuring myself too much in music to
try this now but will hopefully revisit over the next few days!!! Final point on this is that if Graham would like to have a ‘loan
scheme’ demo of my two Figure of 8s I may be able to assist!!! Kind regards Richard |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2015 at 4:58pm
|
OK Richard, please assist. Edit: I must also add that what put me off taking an interest in the mains cable side of things, was because of something that happened at an audio show. My very good colleague and friend who helps me run GSP Audio, John C, went with me to a hifi show a few years ago. We took a look at some hifi mains cables on a stand that will remain nameless. I got chatting to the owner, and unbeknown to me, John C went round the other side of the stand where he skillfully dislodged the braid covering on one of the highly acclaimed cables. It turned out to be a bog-standard RS Components IEC cable, which had been covered with braid, and in the process had become very expensive. I am a cable sceptic, and thought the Spatia link idea was a load of old bollocks, until John C and Leo convinced me that I should take a listen. As I'm not allowed to say there was an improvement, I won't... but there was! It is OK suggesting to me that I should make such things, but how do I advertise them? I have to sell them don't I? Those "kind" people at Advertising Standards told me off about the Lautus USB cable, so I am at a loss as how to sell things (and Advertising Standards aren't very helpful when you ask). Perhaps I ought to have started my own auction website bank, because it's OK to claim that people's money is kept in a titanium safe guarded by Ninja knights...  But, yes, I will take a good listen and report back. Graham ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: ServerBaboon
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2015 at 6:26pm
|
Lap Oliflex Control - Braided doesn't cost a fortune, to be fair Supra dosn't cost that much. That said as having looked around the costs mount when you look at the plugs, just like on interconnects where the plugs can be the majority of the cost, alongside labour compared to the actual cable. When testing the Cusat against my home brews which were made with the same type of cable (I think based on some you previous postings) the differences noted must have ahd a lot to do with the quality if the connecters and workmanship. Which I why I am now fully Lautus'd up except for the short interconnect between the amplifiers. As for Latus USB please don't leave the page blank as it is now, you can at least say how it is made with out claiming anything and allow the reader to make some judgment about quality by the descriotion if the work put into it. There is also the elsewhere suggested tagline of of 'Were not allowed to tell you how good' ------------- Steve ------------- Various bits of GSP Kit ..well two so far, unless you count the cables that is. |
Posted By: DaveG
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2015 at 6:47pm
------------- Dave Michell Gorbe + HR PSU -> Cadenza Bronze -> SME V -> Elevator -> Accession -> Proprius -> B&W CM6 s2 | Cusat 50 & Spatia cables ->
|
Posted By: JamesD
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2015 at 7:47pm
|
Or say something along the lines of 'our Lautus USB cable has been carefully manufactured to maximise the great sound quality that is available with our Majestic DAC. We cannot guarantee that alternative cables will do this'. Kind of reverse psychology? Just a suggestion  ------------- Aren't ears brilliant |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2015 at 8:21pm
|
Graham hi and thanks. I do work relatively locally in South Yorkshire - think one of your team does too? We may be able to organise pick up etc if you would like? Still need to try my Era Gold Vs Revelation (vs leads also) before looking at this, but feel free to message me directly. I suppose the bottom line is to enlighten; there are many pathways (assuming convinced) for probably cheap solutions to bespoke and rather costly ones!! Kindest regard, Richard PS I may be able to guess which stand this was, but as advised previously not al products are the same!
|
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2015 at 9:31pm
|
Perhaps GSPAudio can say: "The purpose of the Lautus interconnects are to enhance the purity of audio reproduction by suppressing electromagnetic interference. A ferrite is placed at an effective length on the interconnect that corresponds to a quarter-wavelength of the most dominant culprit interference. This quarter-wavelength is the position of maximum displacement (called the amplitude) of the interference wave so will provide more noise attentuation here than if positioned at a point of sub-maximal displacement. Whether you, as the customer, consider the Lautus to improve the audio reproduction of your speakers or headphones is entirely your decision. GSPAudio provides a free loan scheme where you can use the Lautus in your own home with your own equipment. This will allow you to make up for your mind as to whether a purchase would be worthwhile." If the Lautus was my product, I would say something like this. ------------- We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are. |
Posted By: oldagetraveller
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2015 at 11:03am
|
And a well known Danish cartridge manufacturer gets away with writing this - "The addition of this component to any high fidelity system will produce an immediate and audible improvement in sound quality". Really? ------------- Peter P T- LPT/RB300/G1042, Pink Triangle Tarantella/Nima/Ortofon 2M Black, SL1210II, Naim CD5, NAC112, NAP150, Flatcap2, Proac SC1, GS SoloUL,GS Accession , Senn HD250 & HD540. |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2015 at 5:42pm
|
I'm picturing someone in a grey pinstripe suit, grey shirt and tie holding their hand over John Cadman's mouth whilst John holds out a Lautus cable. Caption: 'Our cable expert isn't allowed to tell you just how much his decades of R&D will improve the sound of your hi-fi, so you should listen to the cables at home instead.' ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2015 at 6:22pm
|
I must have been watching too much "Nordic Noir", but the scene I conjure up is John tied up and definitely gagged, in some dark, dank, basement with the writing over the scene "Truth - the first casualty of competition". [Totally OT - did anyone watch the Norwegian film Headhunter last night on BBC4? There was a very memorable scene with an outside privvy. "Noir" just doesn't cover it . . . The plot was typical of Jo Nesbø, and if you like his Harry Hole novels this'll be right up your street.] ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Drewan77
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2015 at 11:17am
|
GSP / Gratuitous Sadistic Perversions... Should John be worried about all this talk of gagging and tying up?  ------------- Older than I once was, younger than I'll be ............................. Andrew |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2015 at 11:54am
|
That acronym made me chuckle, thanks Andrew. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2015 at 8:13pm
|
Graham hi, I have now concluded my test switch my Era Gold V/Revelation with standard and 'upgraded' cable with interesting results. Not sue how to post a private message but happy to reply if you wish to send me one? Kind regards, Richard
|
Posted By: ServerBaboon
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2015 at 11:13pm
Looked this up on IPlayer, quite enjoyable, not sure I could sink to those depths though ------------- Steve ------------- Various bits of GSP Kit ..well two so far, unless you count the cables that is. |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2015 at 10:57am
 ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2016 at 6:47pm
|
Oh bugger, having spent time last year deciding which figure of 8 combo was best, I had the cabling apart and can't remember which way round they were now! Testing time again and may have to find a way of marking the plugs & psus. Happy days Richard |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 18 Mar 2016 at 9:09pm
|
. . By way of follow up I have switched the figure of 8 on my Elevator and yes that was the wrong way round. Once understanding the difference from last year it was easy to spot this time. Probably bigger difference than I recall. The 'wrong way' sounded rather soft, a bit withdrawn and possibly a bit more mushy certainly less punchy. I think I my suspicions were aroused by 4 new albums from The Sound of Vinyl they all sounded a big soft and lacking the drive I expected. Will dig them out again to try. Now on to the Revelation! Richard |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 18 Mar 2016 at 10:53pm
| ...have now switched the PSU on the are Revelation - interesting that the difference was a lot smaller, marginal indeed. Will have to try another day to conclude in the Revelation...... |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2016 at 4:56pm
|
Further experimentation with the figure of 8 on my Resolution with fresh ears and different albums have confirmed yesterday's findings that the differences are so small as to be inconclusive. This is strange when tuned in when the nature of the differences are already known and quite obvious on the Elevator. This does remind me of a well known manufacturers mains purification product - again I seriously could not tell any noticeable change in any area and ended up moving the product on. I will try again at some point but think I will just enjoy some more music for now! Cheers for now richard |
Posted By: Aussie Mick
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2016 at 10:40am
|
Hi everyone, Having just re-read this entire thread, my interest was again aroused. I went figure-8 cable flipping again. I confirmed to myself that I had it right. "Upside down" the soundstage got massive and indistinct, just like those out of phase tracks on hifi set up albums. I file it under "free system upgrades". Mick. ------------- Rega RP8 - Apheta 2 - Accession MC Enigma PS -Solo ULDE (Focal Utopia) - PS Audio M700 - Fical Kanta No2 |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2016 at 8:46pm
| ...having reversed the f8 from when playing them originally have revisited my new Six Wives of Henry viii - much better now - purer more dynamic, more drive and imaged/ space. |
Posted By: DaveG
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2016 at 8:32pm
|
I was first alerted to this many years ago when I bought an aftermarket cable for my Marantz CD60SE (that'll tell you how long ago). The cable manufacturer suggested I experiment with this. I believe around that time, or maybe a few years later, a certain well known mail order hi-fi accessory company offered some sort of device for testing polarity. I haven't looked to see if they still do. I forgot all about this afterwards as everything I owned had standard IEC connectors. That is until a couple of years ago when I marked the cables on my PSU1's with a blob of 'er indoors' nail varnish (clearly a better use for it imo). The differences are as others have found..one way is slightly phasey, actually not that - i dunno a bit erm...loose i suppose, with central images slightly recessed. The other seems better focussed while still maintaining a broad stereo image. On my Elevator it seems clear to me that the blob of nail varnish goes at the bottom. So neutral to the top. Swapping just the Accession seems to have less effect, which either echoes Richard's experience with his Revelation or possibly means I'm not familiar enough with it (plus it's only been live for 24hrs and is still bedding in). So which way does it for you chaps...is there a consensus? or do transformers really get wound any which way? Why aren't these things marked + and -? I googled transformer polarity testers & understood none of the results ------------- Dave Michell Gorbe + HR PSU -> Cadenza Bronze -> SME V -> Elevator -> Accession -> Proprius -> B&W CM6 s2 | Cusat 50 & Spatia cables ->
|
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2016 at 9:32pm
|
Imagine the frustration of trying to decide on the best orientation if you were using an Accession, Majestic and Solo ULDE, all with PSU1 power supplies... It was bad enough when I was using a Solo UL with the Majestic... It is certainly phase response that's affected; I don't think it's placebo effect for me.
|
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2016 at 9:49pm
| Interesting Dave. IF this is a common finding (possibly not statistical on two observations) could it be anything to do with the lower level signal within the Elevator than the revelation/accession and therefor it has a bigger impact? I think there was a comment that a Maestro was again lower magnitude - further down the signal change? |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2016 at 8:00am
|
Am I right in thinking that there's no logical (ie electronic) explanation for this? Would swapping + and - speaker leads around negate the effect, or at least reverse it? I'll soon be reassembling my main system, with the permutations Ash alluded to earlier (adding a Reflex and Elevator into the mix as well). I don't know if I'll have mental capacity (or time come to that) to evaluate all the possibilities . . . ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2016 at 9:22am
Should the power be plugged to the PSU1 "contra-phase" - i.e. the plug turned round - then the AC waveform would be t'other way up. However, the rectification to DC is full-wave - done by a bridge rectifier - so the ripple voltage seen at the capacitor filter will be identical either way. The only difference is that the right hand diode is doing what the left hand diode is doing on the other PSU1(s). I accept that there will be some capacitive coupling but this will be at much greater frequencies than the frequency the power "comes from". These will be interference frequencies and as such will differ with location (you all being at different ones). (edit: I should not make mention of interference frequencies as it gets some people worried and rather edgy leading them to blame me for all their problems. Such people should realise that there are interference frequencies in everything!) However, the interference frequencies might be mains harmonics (distortion) which might be asymmetrical, and might be a common factor if all the grid's alternators are made to exactly the same specification. If then this "ripples through" to be so many parts per million on the supply rail of a product, then it will become part of the signal. But remember there is power supply rejection in each amplification stage. The amount of power supply artefact - should it exist - is so small that the difference is not measurable with the audio analysers at our disposal. This is not to suggest you cannot hear it - we cannot or should not assume we have discovered everything there is to discover. Therefore it might be a good idea to make the phases the same for all PSU1's in a system. We tend to use the same supplier of mains cords year after year, and recently there was a change to a different manufacturer. I tested both types and found that if you orientate the Fo8 plug so that the wording 2.5A 250V~ is the same, then all the phases will be the same. For users of the UK plug that will suffice, but for reversible mains plugs such as in Europe and the US etc, that could cause another difficulty. However, there is text moulded into these also, and if aligned the same way, that should also sort the phases same way up.
Sorry, wrong type of phase ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2016 at 6:13pm
| Was it once suggested that coil direction in the transformers may be the cause if polarity is reversed? If direction of charge motion is reversed, the direction of the magnetic field lines is also reversed. Is it a case of variable electromagnetism interacting with permanent magnets?? One direction is synergistic to phase response and the opposite direction antagonizes it? |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2016 at 6:35pm
|
The iron core of a transformer isn't a permanent magnet. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |