MM or MC ?
Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: Turntable Audio
Forum Name: MM: Moving Magnet | MC: Moving Coil
Forum Description: Learn about the differences between moving magnet and moving coil cartridges here
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1906
Printed Date: 24 Apr 2024 at 11:14am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: MM or MC ?
Posted By: Paul P
Subject: MM or MC ?
Date Posted: 20 Jun 2013 at 4:45pm
| Hello I have a Pro-ject Experience 2 Turntable with a Pro-ject Phono Box SE 11 and a Ortofon Blue Cartridge that came with the Deck. I want to upgrade now to either a Reflex C Phono Amp with a Ortofon Rondo Blue MC Cartridge or a Reflex M with a Ortofon 2M Black Cartridge. I'm not sure what to go for .Any help would be appreciated and also other suggestions as well .Thanks. |
Replies:
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2013 at 12:44am
|
Hi Paul, I haven't used your particular turntable but have a couple of suggestions. I have heard the Ortofon 2M Black is good, has anyone got either or both of these cartridges please? My experience with the Goldring 1042 and 2500 on a Rega P3-24 was good. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Drewan77
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2013 at 12:46am
I have an Ortofon 2M Black/Rega RP6 running
through a Reflex/PSU1. My tastes are predominantly Rock, Blues, Indie & Folk and I do listen quite loud. I therefore prefer a lively cartridge and if your tastes are more mellow then maybe this is not the best for you.
The 2M Black seems smooth, dynamic, and crisp
with a deep, taut bass. I have read that all the 2M’s can be neutral and almost
digital sounding and I can see that to a degree – it has a resemblance to high
quality CD and FLAC’s but on a back-to-back listen with the same music in
either format, it is more natural and smooth sounding, the performance seems
considerably more realistic. I attend a lot of live amplified music & this comes as close as I have heard to that, avoiding distortion or flabby bass which I dislike with a passion. I don’t think the 2M’s are particularly warmly coloured in the
traditional vinyl sense, however the Black is certainly not cold or analytical. I have no desire to change.
My ‘spare’ stylus is a 2M Blue and this has
a strong family resemblance when fitted on the Black body, certainly a lot
closer than the relative prices would suggest. It has a leaner bass, slightly
more strident top end and is a little less transparent. Of course, my observations are using the higher quality Black body with the Blue stylus so maybe the difference to an original Blue could be greater. So, if you like the Blue, I can strongly recommend the Black. It also tracks very well, just about managing the Hi Fi News test LP ‘nightmare’ track and sails through all the others @ 17.5g downforce.
I have no experience of the Ortofon Rondo Blue MC, however for me there is the MM advantage of stylus replacement when damaged/worn without sending off for repair or buying new. Plus the ability to fit a spare stylus for less critical or background listening which lengthens the life of the main stylus. ------------- Older than I once was, younger than I'll be ............................. Andrew |
Paul P wrote:Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2013 at 12:47am
|
Thanks Drewan ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: marshmid
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2013 at 1:27pm
|
Drewan77 said; "So, if you like the Blue, I can strongly recommend the Black. It also tracks very well, just about managing the Hi Fi News test LP ‘nightmare’ track and sails through all the others @ 17.5g downforce." I'm sure that tracking force ia a 'typo' and that it should be 1.75g. Marsh |
Posted By: Drewan77
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2013 at 2:26pm
Oops, yes  (was wondering why the stylus cut my vinyl into black apple peel !)------------- Older than I once was, younger than I'll be ............................. Andrew |
Posted By: jrhughes
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2013 at 3:54pm
|
Hi Drewan, That's quite a bit more than the recommended "optimum" 1.5g and beyond the recommended max of 1.7. I'm curious, as I have both the Bronze (rec. 1.5g) and Blue (rec. 1.8g), did you reach 1.75g purely because you found that's where it was best behaved, or did you nudge it up a bit so you could swap Black with Blue stylus and not have to keep altering the VTF? My Bronze is set to 1.6g but I'd be a bit nervous of taking it up to 1.75, although I'd like to swap stylus sometimes without having to adjust VTF, which is a pain. Cheers, Jason ------------- Jason |
Posted By: Drewan77
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2013 at 4:35pm
On my Rega turntable/ 2M Black I originally used the standard geometry (Stevenson) at 1.5g but about 6 months ago I bought a Hi Fi News test LP and a digital scales because I felt I could improve the sound. It was at a time that I had changed a lot of my system, adding some large, dynamic OB speakers. Vinyl was sounding inferior to CD and FLAC and that should not be ! I could not get the stylus to pass the last two tracking tests so I thought I would change to Baerwald geometry and try that. At first, using the original 1.5g it passed the penultimate one but still struggled with the last. Upping the force to 1.75g eventually did the trick and I now have a really fantastic sound across the whole of an LP, absolutely no mistracking and recently adding a GS Reflex I am really happy again. There is also a Lautus interconnect coming soon as a result of the excellent loan scheme. The spare Blue stylus was added after all this and I do not fiddle with the tracking force - it sounds perfectly good without any change & it isn't used for high concentration listening. I am convinced that perfecting the geometry has a very significant impact (cart is now close to the front of the headshell, minutely angled inwards, previously about 3mm further back) I am also 56y old and with a collection numbering 1000s Lps and even more CD/Digital, I'm sure I won't possibly play anything enough to wear it out before I shuffle. I do believe the stuff about a slightly higher force being preferable, rather than slight mistracking which can cause more damage. ------------- Older than I once was, younger than I'll be ............................. Andrew |
Posted By: jrhughes
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2013 at 4:58pm
|
Useful information - especially as my Bronze may one day turn into a Black :o) I think I should invest in the HFN test record. Cheers! ------------- Jason |
Posted By: jrhughes
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2013 at 5:18pm
|
... and apologies to Paul for hijacking the thread. I was in a very similar situation. With the Bronze, I didn't know whether to stick with MM or dip my toes into MC. As it turns out, I am engineering it so that my decision is a little easier: do both :o) I decided that I had to find out what a MC setup sounds like, despite being very happy indeed with my setup which currently uses a Reflex M with PSU1. I took the plunge and finally ordered a Benz Micro SL (which STILL hasn't arrived  ) and, with that, I will temporarily use an Edwards MC1 but replace that with either Reflex M+Elevator or Reflex C. I'm building another TT system in my home office which currently has the Blue but will have the Bronze once the Benz is here. It was a very tough choice and it took me a while to make. This way I get the benefit of both but if I'd not been able to set up a second TT system I reckon I'd have gone with the Black and been very happy indeed. ------------- Jason |
Posted By: Drewan77
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2013 at 6:34pm
When I bought the RP6/2M Black, my friend also purchased the same TT to use with his Bronze. The Bronze/Black are pretty similar so you might as well wait until you need a replacement stylus anyway. As I said, working on the geometry has really made a significant difference and I have no desire to change for any reason. By the way, my dealer insisted I audition the Rega Exact MM cartridge at the time of purchase and compared to the Ortofon, it sounded lifeless and veiled. The only upgrades left for now are more GS interconnects & speaker cable - I have been amazed that finally I have found a cable that sounds significantly better than 'well regarded' premium brands. ------------- Older than I once was, younger than I'll be ............................. Andrew |
Posted By: ServerBaboon
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2013 at 10:50am
|
The big question is do you want stay with mm/mi or do you want move up the mc ladder if your long term goals are MC then getting a Reflex C and the Rondo would save on the cost of a step up stage at a later date which you would need if you had the Reflex M. N.B. Although I am sure Graham has intimated that Reflex M + Elevator has the a slight edge and coupled with variable input loading perhaps there would be a small advantages to this. Since I started on a path of green Reflex M and upgrades I have been on an mm path which for me is fine as I have set a limit on what I want to spend partly budget and partly the fear of drunken listening sessions (clumsy needle bending) and according to HiFi World the Black is as good if not better than comparably priced mc cartridges. However this is not the cartridge for woolly vinyl romance its a smooth clean sounding cartridge with a good top end and it let's you know that El Camino is a bad recording but the quality is such that the music and energy still shines through. I did consider changing my 2m Black to a Soundsmith or Music Maker cartridge for a change, I still wonder what an MC would sound like, but the inability to listen to hear them and the fact that a 2m Black stylus was at least £150 cheaper meant that I am still a 2M black listener. Since I have not had that many cartridges all I can say is that the 2M Black is good but not for everyone. Below is a link to a blog by a guy who has listened to the whole of the 2M range and compares them with the Ortofon Rondo Red, he also has a Project turntable. Some of his comments may be based on hist not using the right phono stage though He seems to have stopped updating his blog which is a bit worrying as he was ill and he maybe can't use his computer anymore. http://www.theapplechap.webspace.virginmedia.com/TheAppleChap/Blog/Entries/2012/2/23_Evaluating_the_Ortofon_Rondo_Red_and_Denon_103R.html - http://www.theapplechap.webspace.virginmedia.com/TheAppleChap/Blog/Entries/2012/2/23_Eva luating_the_Ortofon_Rondo_Red_and_Denon_103R.html ------------- Steve ------------- Various bits of GSP Kit ..well two so far, unless you count the cables that is. |
Posted By: Drewan77
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2013 at 11:35am
Yes, I had a number of dialogues with Alan (the Applechap) and his health was deteriorating. I believe he is no longer able to email, sadly. His reviews of the 2M range are pretty accurate, from my own experience of the Black & the Blue and friends Bronze ------------- Older than I once was, younger than I'll be ............................. Andrew |
Posted By: Paul P
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2013 at 11:51am
| Thanks for that informative report on the Ortofon range. I'm still not sure what to buy !Should I buy the Phono Amp first ? The Phono Amp's partnered with the Rondo Blue or the Ortofon Black 2M are similar in price but which should I buy? I listen to a lot of 60's and 70's along with Rock but not much in the way of Dance or Hip -Hop .Any idea's ? I f I go down the MM route I could keep buy a Reflex first then upgrade to the Black or Bronze later ? Thanks again on this ongoing but very interesting topic. |
Posted By: ServerBaboon
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2013 at 12:16pm
|
Unfortunately since you are the one that has to listen to the consequences of the decision It is dificult for anyone else to tell what to buy. I am in no particular mood to change but I have not heard a side by side comparison in my system so all I can say is never say never. An easy solution is to loan a Reflex M (its free except for P&P) and try your Blue and perhaps with the link review decide whether the house sound of the 2M range is what you want. If you buy a Reflex M you can still move to MC, but you would need to buy an Elevator as well, so you are not cut off. If you did buy a Reflex M you could still use you Blue for a bit, especially during the burn in period. You could always email Henley and ask them what level of Cartridge you turntable can handle. Drewen77 - Blue stylus for background listening....mmmm... interesting. ------------- Steve ------------- Various bits of GSP Kit ..well two so far, unless you count the cables that is. |
Posted By: Paul P
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2013 at 4:31pm
| Thanks again for the info , I've just e-mailed Henley and now wait for their reply . |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2013 at 6:34pm
|
Hello Paul, thank you for asking me by email. I replied to you but I'm also including it here... Well, you know me, I'm quite simply pro-MM. I believe if a MM is set up properly it scores way above MC. It does it because MM doesn't place ridiculous demands on phono preamp electronics gain. The designer (e.g. me) is freed from worries about S/N ratios allowing him to concentrate on wider bandwidth and therefore faster reacting circuits. These tend to be quieter (this being counter-intuitive) because the faster reaction means shorter propagation delays which reduces overshoot in feedback amplifiers - the result is quieter vinyl (the circuits need time powered on to achieve minimum overshoot - after a few weeks the vinyl gets quieter and that's not placebo effect). Trade-in a little S/N ratio for reduced overshoot and you bring to life your LPs. The downside can be the fight against hum simply because some modern tone arms have poor shielding properties. They're like that because their designers know they can get away with it... it's easy to blame the poor old MM and ridicule people for not having an MC. You see, with an MC the source impedance is much lower which tends to make the wiring more immune to interference... it's a cheat in my book. There is a half way house and that's to use a high output MC and "tg" has some good recommendations there. You'll still only need a good MM phono stage but you may also find a bit of impedance matching is necessary, but "tg" covered that also. Hope "tg" will chip in (if he hasn't done already). Graham ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2013 at 10:46pm
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Ahem I have a confession to make. I am listening to a Denon 103 MC cartridge on my much loved and improved Sl1210/Zephyr deck. It sounds very good and is challenging my previous views about MC being very expensive, bright, and fiddly. Thanks to phildent for loaning me the 103. The GSP Reflex C is a big factor in presenting the music I am enjoying. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: TWM
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2013 at 2:18am
| Anyone tried a Dynavector 20 x 2 with a Graham Amp 2 SE on a RP-6? |
Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2013 at 1:27pm
|
If it's a 20x2H you shouldn't have any problems with it - it's designed to run into a MM phono stage. If it's a 20x2L then you're going to need to step up the signal, either by Step Up Transformer, or using one of Graham's Elevators. I run a Sumiko Blue Point Special Evo III into a GramAmp2 SE with no problems. The Sumiko isn't one for the faint hearted though ...  |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2013 at 10:21pm
|
I considered an Evo III for a while, Chris, but was put off by conflicting reports. How would you characterise it? ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2013 at 11:45pm
|
Prior to getting the Sumiko I was running a DNM Reson Reca, which had a stylus that was starting to get a bit tired. The Sumiko was a revelation, with the get up and go of the Reson, but with a less forced and shouty presentation. The increase in ambient detailing something I also appreciate, and it's done without the sound being any brighter. The stylus clings to the groove like a limpet too. The main negative is that the cartridge does not have a stylus guard - you really do need nerves of steel to mount it on a tonearm. |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2013 at 9:36am
Yes, the exposed cantilever on the Sumiko does look rather scary  ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Rousillon
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2013 at 12:57am
| Hello to everyone on the forum. I'm a newby to the forum. I had remarked to Mr. Slee about his remarkable company and he was kind enough to send me a short personal reply, as well as later to give an excellent explanation of just how the PSU 1 improves the sound of his phono amps. Refreshing to hear reality is spoken here and demonstrates the respect Mr. Slee has for the intelligence of his clientele. Something refreshing to find these days. Happpy listening everyone. |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2013 at 1:11am
|
Welcome to the forum, Rousillon! We're very fortunate here to have Graham willing to educate us as well as building great products! I hope you enjoy the forum and find time to tell us a bit about your musical and hifi interests.... ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2013 at 11:46am
If you think that looks scary Bob, I have removed the plastic cover from my DL-103 and the parts in the OM's cutaway diagrams are all on show. The cantilever looks very long. Thanks to Phil the cartridge is glued to an aluminium plate with tapped screw holes for mounting on the head shell. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2013 at 12:01pm
|
A properly "nude" cartridge then, Jon! ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2013 at 10:24pm
Yes indeed as this quick photo shows: ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: phildent
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2013 at 11:37pm
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Very brave Jon and how does it sound compared to before. Phil 
|
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2013 at 12:08pm
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Thanks Phil, I used a new scalpel blade and followed an online video showing the safest method. Still a scary procedure. (Predictably!) I think it sounds better than before. There is more detail and I like the sound. The midrange seems as clear and musical, there seems to be a little more treble. The bass is similar despite losing a little mass and perhaps some rigidity in the casing? I suspect this would be more pronounced without the aluminium plate. On the Internet I found descriptions that suggested the casing I removed was prone to resonance. My tapping of the casing beforehand and the front of the aluminium plate before and after was inconclusive. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: phildent
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2013 at 7:30pm
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Must give this a try.I have a new tapped tungsten plate to try first and will then try this,thanks Phil |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2013 at 8:13pm
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Hi Phil, I found this video very helpful: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ENq8PoXhaU - How to open up DL-103 Please let me know how the tungsten plate sounds. I may try that myself. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: phildent
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2013 at 11:00am
|
Don't bother with the titanium plate,sounds worse than the much cheaper alloy one to me. Now to find some courage and cut off the body! Phil Just noticed incorrect post above,plate is titanium not tungsten. |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2013 at 11:07pm
Since that photo I have dismounted the naked DLl03 and adjusted it to enable a greater overhang when refitted on the tone arm. It is quite tiny in my large hands. Levering the plastic base of the cart away from the alloy block was a little scary, but it was the only way to break the superglue bond. It sounds great and I've found switching the EXP's loading up from 1000 to 5100 ohms gives some helpful treble boost on some LP's. On already bright LP's it can be a little splashy so I set it by ear. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: phildent
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2013 at 9:01pm
|
Wow Jon Those brave pills are really working. Glad to hear it now sounds so good but I always thought increasing the rigidity of the cartridge anchor was the way to go. However everybody tells me the cartridge Man isolator sounds superb and that appears to be some sort of foam sandwich so perhaps some isolation or flexibility in mounting is helpful. I think this may be very arm dependent and I will try this with one of my spare Denons(maybe an old one) I also found I could get the Denon far enough forward in my arm to suit the geometry I use. Phil |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2013 at 10:25pm
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Hi Phil, it's worth the reward! the main benefit seems to be clarity or detail in the midrange. I suspect we've been reading the same threads on the DL-103 mods, about rigidity and strengthening the cartridge anchor. FWIW I have made sure the plastic footprint of the Denon is covered by the alloy base with a film of Superglue. I've got an isolator and be interested in your thoughts on the sound if you can use it with a DL103. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: phildent
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2013 at 11:04pm
|
Hi Jon,Will send for an isolator,and try it with an open mind letting you know the results. Incidentally the single biggest improvement I have found to date for all the cartridges I have is a homemade damping trough akin to the Townshend Rock.It was a pig to make as it had to look good for the wife.It took lots of experimentation with materials etc but improves all the cartridges and arms I have tried on my deck. I will take a Denon in to work tomorrow,don my loupes and hopefully remove its clothes.Wish me luck. Phil |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2015 at 12:24pm
|
A bit of a thread resurrection, but the title seemed appropriate. I've been (well still am) evaluating a new turntable mat on my Kenwood 7010, and having run through my little collection of MCs I thought I'd look at the MMs that I haven't touched for simply ages. The only exception being the Technics P22/SAS currently in my parallel tracker. So resting the Elevator for a while it was on with high output carts - a Pickering moving iron, SAE homc and then I thought why not try my p-mount cartridges, of which I have quite a few. The last time I tried these in a half-inch adaptor was on the Sony Biotracer and the results were less than stunning. But I bought a new, and very cheap, headshell and the first p-mount MM on the Kenwood is an LPGear special - an AT body of some sort with a Shibata (possibly Jico?) stylus. Wow! What a sound! Bold, detailed and lively. Not at all polite, nor especially refined, but immensely enjoyable. High percussion fizzes with energy and definition - much more solid than the traditional MC "sparkle" (this on "On Every Street" by Dire Straits). Mid-range presentation is forward and sharply delineated, bass well controlled. The woodwind of The English Concert chattering away in Handel have a nicely nasal quacking sound like a herd of unruly geese and the music has never sounded livelier. Who needs MC? What is there to say which kind of presentation is "correct" - ie closest to the mastertape? It must come down to what floats your boat at any given time. The LPGear AT will, I know, become fatiguing after a while, but the ride while it lasts is great fun! I've quite a few p-mounts still to come, including an Ortofon OM40 and X1 (homc), a Pickering of some sort, Grado Red (if it fits the adaptor) and a Sonus SPM4. Below is a picture of the LPGear AT. And the turntable mat? Watch for a post (maybe in the Life of Foo thread ). ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2015 at 5:24pm
|
Good post and photo Bob. It's good to revisit the 'spare' hi-fi gear. I swapped over to an old pair of speakers a couple of months back and enjoyed the change, although I'm back on the newer ones now. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2015 at 6:03pm
Indeed it is, Jon. I've just played Previn's EMI recording of Rachmaninov's 2nd Symphony (one of Phil's I think?  ) with the AT, via the LCD-2s and it was tremendous - no hint of the fatigue that I was afraid of, just vibrant, sumptuous, sweeping music. I must get this out again when the Zyx gets back on the deck . . ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2015 at 12:09pm
|
That's a relief Bob, I thought you'd left the MC group! ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2015 at 1:11pm
Once seduced by the dark side of MCs you can only have occasional forays into the light of MMs . .  I must add that 1973 Rach 2 disc (HMV ASD 2889) to my list of orchestral "test records", though. ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2015 at 11:06am
|
On to a Sonus SPM4 now - a NOS cart at a bargain price from a Stockholm hifi store. Rach 2 with this is as romantic and full bloodied as it could get, with a balanced tipped to the warm side of neutral but enough high frequency detail to keep it real. Massed basses have a real bite and depth, too. It's easy to forget the component doing the heavy lifting in all this, by which I mean the self-effacing Reflex M. It just does its job and gets out of the way of the music. ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2015 at 7:36pm
|
My rave fave MC is the Denon DL103! Never heard an MC sound so good. I must add that IMO it needs a 1000 Ohm load. I think tg advised that, and I've proved it for myself over 500+ hours (so far) of the new invention phono stage development. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: phildent
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2015 at 12:29pm
|
Must agree,the only mc I keep around is a denon dl103.It is crazy value for money. However I mainly use a dynavector mm these days. I have been wondering about moving iron cartridges such as Soundsmith or origin live Aladdin but have yet to find anyone using one to get any feedback.Supposedly they are the best of both worlds. |
Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2015 at 12:42pm
Which one? |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2015 at 1:01pm
|
My findings with one low output moving iron is that the dynamic range seems expanded, meaning I have to increase the volume for quiet passages, and then it's too loud on the loudest passages. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: phildent
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2015 at 1:14pm
|
Hi Chris,Thats an interesting question.When I checked it is a high output mc the 10x5.It appears that the only mm I have at the moment is an Ortofon Black which doesn't float my boat.Senility is a wicked thing although you do get to meet lots of new friends each day. Thanks for the heads up Graham perhaps I will give moving iron a miss then |
Posted By: Lucabeer
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2015 at 1:24pm
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I have a moving iron, the Nagaoka MP-500. Bloody expensive (for my standards), but I got it at 30% less than the European price thanks to a Japanese guy who was kind enough to buy it for me in Japan (at the Japanese discounted price). What can I say? It's the most refined performance of all cartridges I have (AT440MLa and Ortofon 2M Black), really musical and transparent. My only minor complaint: while not exactly low output, it definitely has a lower output than my other two cartridges. With the Ortofon I can listen to some LPs with the Solo SRG on the middle position, while I have to crank it up almost to the max with the Nagaoka. Lovely cartridge nonetheless. |
Posted By: phildent
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2015 at 1:47pm
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Thanks Lucabeer,its not out of the ballpark financially but I find cartridges almost impossible to try.As a good customer of Origin Live I am sure Mark would allow me to audition the Aladdin but it may take a fair bit of running in so it may be ages before it is run in,and I would feel I was taking the p***,not something I want to do to Mark,or anyone because he has been very helpful. I also find cartridges to be turntable/arm dependent which muddies the water even more for those people fortunate to have more than one. Perhaps we should start a cartridge audition scheme similar to GSP's loan scheme.I have successfully done a loan system with one member on here which worked well. |
Posted By: RichW
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2015 at 1:53pm
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I found the Musicmaker MI to be quite smooth & full sounding compared to Ortofon Cadenza Blue MC for example, but it seems to be fussier to get working optimally. It needs a good arm to show it's potential and good quality LPs are preferred. O/p is 'MM' level 4mV. Currently very impressed with the AN IQ1 MM, based on the Goldring 10xx. ------------- Majestic/Enigma, Accession MM & MC. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2015 at 5:01pm
Absolutely brilliant!!!  ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2015 at 7:58pm
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...and lots of 'new' punch lines, although I don't wish to make light of dementia. My MM3 was a bit intolerant of scratched records but great in other ways. I tried a Denon DL103 and was taken by its easy musical sound, both before and after I took the plastic body off. There's a naked cart photo elsewhere on this forum. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2015 at 11:26am
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Hi, I am aware trying cartridges can be difficult, was told as much by one supplier. Since I needed cartridge and phone stages I worlked on teh basis get the phono stage decided first then the cartridge. I am aware of one dealer in the north east: back in 2008/9, I auditioned Dynavectors 17D3, Dynavector XX2-2, Lyra Dorian(?), Ortofon Kontrapunkt B, Transfiguration (not sure which model) and think one more. We started on my existing deck/arm/cartrideg for a reference point. The dealer kindly set these up in a deck of my choice (GyroSE), arm of choice (Origin Live Silver) and later switched to Techno and Roksan Nima uni-pivot (once cartridge decided on)! On each ocassion I/we were left to our own devices, no pressure - our vinyl or his!! Oh by the way we started with phono stages: listened to Tricord Dino & Diablo (I think), the on to the Era Gold V/Elevator - again I think one more. This is how I fell in to Graham's wonderful world. Anyway this dealer can demo, has excellent facilities and attitude. Not sure whether it is in order to name him (Moderator please advise?) but happy to pass on details if North East England was an option. Good luck |
Posted By: RichW
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2015 at 1:08pm
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Richard if it's the dealer in the town where the world's first public railway operated I agree - had good service from them too. ------------- Majestic/Enigma, Accession MM & MC. |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2015 at 4:42pm
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Maybe your history is better than mine, it sounds right - dealers initials SG? Richard
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Posted By: RichW
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2015 at 5:12pm
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That's the one. He used to have a 2nd hand HiFi shop at the other end of that first railway a few years ago too  . Always helpful.------------- Majestic/Enigma, Accession MM & MC. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2015 at 8:39pm
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If the dealer supports us then it's OK to mention their name. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2015 at 8:42pm
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I reckon any dealer actively selling GSP products should be supported, and therefore named . . .
Edit: you just beat me to it, Graham! ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2015 at 9:55pm
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Yes and celebrate the dealers who let their customers listen to their music and make their minds up. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2015 at 10:07pm
------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2015 at 2:06pm
Well in response to my earlier post the dealer is Simon Griffin, based in Stockton - trading name Hi-Fi Sound. Has wide product range - this seems to have expanded since I last visited in additional to wide knowledge, great demo facilities, attitude and service. Richard |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2015 at 2:09pm
Hi was your Denon self customised? Looks impressive. Whilst the gut feel is that resonances should be reduced, rigidty compromised? . Sorry if you have posted elsewhere but suspect colouration may have reduced and has brought greater openness?Richard
|
Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2015 at 2:47pm
That looks a scary as my Sumiko |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2015 at 10:46pm
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It was scary cutting off the DL103's cover and removing it. Handling it was slightly less scary after the aluminium base plate was attached. I found out about the DL103 from this forum and think it is great with different types of music at a sensible price. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2015 at 2:53pm
No matter how much I'd been enjoying the MMs, getting the EXP fired up and lowering the R100 into the groove was like going back to a vintage claret after a house red  . As good as the MMs might have been their sound was paler, shallower and muted by comparison. Not many hi-fi differences are truly "night and day", but this was. My go-to recording for a quick sound assessment is Fast Forward from Spyro Gyra on GRP Records. Having this traverse the chain of silver GSP boxes between TT and LCD-2s put a very big grin on my face that's only just fading. My family think I need some kind of treatment . . .  ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Drewan77
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2015 at 2:59pm
 ------------- Older than I once was, younger than I'll be ............................. Andrew |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2015 at 3:09pm
------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: McHolmeM
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2015 at 12:52pm
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[/QUOTE]My go-to recording for a quick sound assessment is Fast Forward from Spyro Gyra on GRP Records.[/QUOTE]
In the seven weeks the Reflex C has been in use an estimated forty hours of music has coursed through its circuits so I though I'd dust off my copy of Fast Forward and give that a listen. Sure enough as with everything else that has been played the recording is heard a fresh with new detail revealed and presented in a whole new dynamic, especially so with this jazz-funk title. I'm sure the Reflex C would even improve the replay of my 1966 Decca recording 'Pass the Driving Test'! And many happy returns to Graham.
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Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2015 at 5:34pm
------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2015 at 7:43pm
I missed this post whilst I was away. Phew! It was just a bad dream when my Zyx mentor left. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2015 at 8:43am
------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2015 at 8:59am
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Couldn't temp you with an A95 then? ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2015 at 9:09am
Nah! The A95 would be ok - though it does look pretty cool - but I think it would fail a bang-for-your-buck test . . (well my b-f-y-buck test, anyway!)  ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Aussie Mick
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2017 at 7:56am
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Hi All, I'm going to resuscitate this thread, as I've made the switch from mm to mc! I had the opportunity to grab a Rega Apheta 2 at a terrific price and I took it. It's now residing on the end of my RP8 and playing through the Australian loaner Elevator EXP while I wait for mine to arrive. I'm coming from the Ortofon 2M Black and I was expecting quite an upgrade considering the retail price difference. Well, I have to say it is bloody lovely. I must add that I'm not at all a fan of the Rega MM carts. Not even a little bit. However, the Apheta 2 is certainly a keeper. Huge dynamics, effortlessly wide and deep soundstage, and terrific detail. Is this the usual MM vs MC difference? Thank goodness for the EXP! Mick. ------------- Rega RP8 - Apheta 2 - Accession MC Enigma PS -Solo ULDE (Focal Utopia) - PS Audio M700 - Fical Kanta No2 |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2017 at 8:13am
It depends to an extent on how much blood sweat and tears have been lost over it. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Aussie Mick
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2017 at 9:38am
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I assume, Graham, that you're referring to the birthing pains of the EXP as compared to some others? I've not used an SUT and I never will. I will, however, say that the Apheta 2 sounds better in my system than in the one in which it previously resided, where it also lived on an RP8. There are no common elements to the rest of the system, so I can't compare from that standpoint. Mick. ------------- Rega RP8 - Apheta 2 - Accession MC Enigma PS -Solo ULDE (Focal Utopia) - PS Audio M700 - Fical Kanta No2 |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2017 at 10:22am
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Most will know my feelings regarding moving coil. A few technically minded might just have noticed the difficulties it leads to - they only need to take a look at some of the earlier designs by reputable designers (there aren't many) to realise. Few of those designs work in today's "connected world" without hearing 'disturbances'. Electronic components exist to service the requirements of today (which manufacturer is going to run an expensive production line making components few will buy?), and the result of that is there are precious few suitable components available to do the job. I read elsewhere on this forum about a kit head-amp for MC with which the member was very happy. The FET used is no longer manufactured and neither are all the alternatives, so that's a dead-end. The British or Dutch made BC109C transistor which could have helped can now only be found in museums. Even so, these old circuits have something in common to the guitarist's fuzz box - they do not consider the slew-rate of the signal emanating from a MC cartridge. The math is simple and has existed numerous years so what's the excuse? It's no use me going and asking others for their help. Therefore I have to conjure up a circuit (or three) in an attempt to make the listener's lot a happy one, using components that are not designed for the job, because no component ever was (apart from a SUT of course). ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Aussie Mick
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2017 at 12:07pm
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Hi Graham, Yes, I've read through your (thoroughly technical and beautifully explained) ideas on the failings of MC. I'm very lucky in that where I live is mercifully quiet electronically, and in having a dedicated listening space in a studio that is not connected to the main house. I've enjoyed my 2M Black for few years now, but even on ten hours of experience, I know I'm going to enjoy the Apheta 2 even more. The "problem" as I see it, Graham, is that you appear to have overcome the inherent weaknesses of which you speak when it comes to MC. Does that sound right? You identified problems, did your research and found solutions. Then you proceeded to find consistent and reliable ways to manufacture your product. That sounds like good engineering practise to me! I'm loving the EXP/Reflex combination, Graham. Loving it. Mick. ------------- Rega RP8 - Apheta 2 - Accession MC Enigma PS -Solo ULDE (Focal Utopia) - PS Audio M700 - Fical Kanta No2 |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2017 at 4:11pm
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Seconding Mick's praise for GSP MC stages the Elevator EXP has made the difference between the three MC's I tried very clear but made them all excel with the music I played. I started with a second hand DL-103 then made it 'naked' but carefully removing the plastic box, the EXP made the difference in clarity obvious. When I bought a Zyx R100-L the EXP was there to reveal the extra detail, and after a couple of years of heavy use I got a second hand Transfiguration Phoenix and the EXP showed why that cartridge is highly regarded. Occasionally I have heard interference coming through but it is an external problem and not a factor in my listening. Again I think the EXP's design helps with this. Thank you very much Graham for the years of work that went into developing the Elevator EXP and your honest account of the problems in amplifying the signal from an MC cartridge. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Alasdair
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2018 at 10:52pm
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Oh dear ... I've just made a journey in the other direction! Many years ago I got a Denon DL103, worked out how to make it sing and thought this was all I would ever need. I then fitted it with a metal body, got Expert Stylus to fit it with a Paratrace stylus and sapphire cantilever, worked out how to make that sing and thought it was even better and even more definitely all I would ever need. I had it in a Mayware Formula V arm set to maximum mass, running through a 'BlackHead 2' step up transformer into a Genera phono preamp. Then came the time when the Denon needed another retip and before sending it away I had a rummage in my old cartridge box. First to come out was an old Rega RB100 fixed stylus moving magnet, which had astonishing stereo imaging, clearly beating even the Denon, and was a treat on some orchestral pieces but ultimately was limited by its non-flat frequency response. Then out came an old Goldring G900SE which I had retipped with a 0.5 though naked conical stylus by Expert Stylus as an experiment many moons ago. Help ... this was seriously good but then its ancient stylus suspension collapsed. Mantra Audio came to the rescue with a Tonar hyperelliptical stylus which tracks perfectly at 1.2g. It's very sensitive to input capacitance (I found 150pF in the Genera plus about 70pF tonearm leads was right) but once I had it working right the stereo image, the projection of vocals, the bass, the toe-tapping were all excellent and, well, the Denon DL103 is in the 'old cartridges' box and the step up transformer is now sitting on the shelf. Points to Graham, methinks ...
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Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2018 at 12:51pm
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I feel this topic has been left somewhat open ended given my findings with the Accession MC phono stage and PSU1 Enigma power supply. It should be common sense to understand that small signals are harder to work with than large signals. When you have a situation, like with MC, where -60dB at 100Hz is 73.1dB less than its rated 1kHz output (helped by record EQ), so with a 0.2mV output cartridge you are expecting a 0.000044mV signal to survive (after all reviewers believe they can hear such low level stuff). It isn't much better with an average output MM: here for a 3.5mV output MM it is 0.00077mV, nearly 20 times easier. In an ideal world the only noise you would have is that of resistors and amplifier (chip or discrete) input-noise x gain, but such thinking omits all the unthought-of of "crap" which affects everything in many different ways. With a bandwidth of 100Hz and amplifier input noise of 5nV/root Hz we have 50nV of noise which is 0.00005mV. At -60dB the MM is more than 10 times above this - the MC just below, so the reviewer must be telling fibs. OK, you can get op-amps with a little less noise, but resistors contribute their own too, so the tiniest MC signal is always going to be compromised - the MM less compromised. All we can do is "work" on the MC stage in other ways to help it on its way. One way we can do this is to iron out noise or distortion in the power supply ground. Signal is referenced to ground, and if ground can "move" then signal "moves" because of it, and it shouldn't, but this is part of the unthought-of "crap". The PSU1 Enigma helps sort out some of this. It does not improve on the already correct grounding method within the PSU1, but it recognises that the usual thinking about reservoir capacitors is wrong! A capacitor's capacitance changes plotted against frequency. We should try and make that flat, but the physics makes it impossible. In AC theory the supply and ground are one and the same. But if the capacitance changes with frequency it cannot be one and the same. All we can do is make it flatter by recognising which capacitors can do this. And that is what I did. It helps dig smaller MC signals out of the noise which intermodulates it. It might not work with the -60dB signals the reviewers imagine, but with what I call normal music, it "damages" it less. It brings both ideas closer together in how they sound, or as I perceive they sound, which some of you have also heard. It isn't the case of me changing my mind over all the technical things I have written. It is not a case of me now saying MC is better than MM. It is basically me saying that I can now enjoy music using MC as much as I can using MM. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2018 at 10:45pm
| So if the key moment for you with MC was the realization that it was the reservoir capacitors in the PSU1 that needed attention, why not try the Enigma PSU1 with the Accession MM? Is there improvement to be had with moving magnet too? |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2018 at 3:18am
I understand what you're getting at but it doesn't seem to be so. Perhaps somebody with trained ears could hear some improvement? Mine are musically untrained. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2018 at 8:34pm
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FWIW with 50+ year old musician's ears I tested the Enigma PSU1 with a variety of GSP phono stages and didn't hear a clear difference on the MM stages. But I did on the EXP and on the AccMC. In all cases I was only running that piece of equipment off its own PSU1/Enigma. I couldn't do a blind ABX test on my own but did play several tracks or a whole side to get an overall feel for the music with each setup. I also did some needledrops which I still have and think the MM ones are similar with either PSU1 whereas the MC is clearer, better guitars, percussion, strings and more dynamic IMO with the Enigma. With respect to others' opinions and Graham's expertise I think the big step forward in the AccMC is the MC to MM boost stage which Graham has written about and the Enigma PSU1 is a step up from that. Put together they have the real sound of the EXP/AccMM I also own and overcome the technical issues (interference) of a small moving coil signal boosted up by over1000x. Technical stuff aside I have more fun listening to records on MC now. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Old skool
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2018 at 11:09pm
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I’ve never gone MC. Mainly cos I can’t afford a good one & also because I’d have to by another phono stage. I’ve lost count of the comments I’ve had on the LP12 forum along the lines of: it’s just begging for a MC cart. Why would you put a MM (spit) cart on a highly modded LP12??!!
Has to be a L*nn MC cart or Denon Dl103. Thin I’m seen as a philistine/heretic for using a 2M Black. ------------- Is the pursuit High Fidelity a sign of mental illness?? I think so.... |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2018 at 3:07am
When in Rome... I am most sure that few if any turntable user realises the compromises involved in MC preamplification, and I wonder if they actually listen with their ears, or through their bias? Don't get me wrong: mechanically the MC is spot-on! It's just that the electronics required to match the darned things doesn't exist, never did, and never will! But to understand that requires an in-depth understanding of audio amplification, which the vast majority of them don't have. C******e Audio designer Doug Self, who I may disagree with on some issues (we've never met), but has to be accepted as one of the "greats", could only muster a head amp based around a NE5534 and 3 compounded transistors. A number of MC fanatics will be using that device built into the said companies phono stage (and many swear blind that they're the best). Unfortunately all feed-forward op-amps exhibit a false sound signature (OK, this is my opinion only) and the NE5534 is feed-forward. But all designers seem to forget, or didn't know, that what they're trying to amplify is a device (MM, MC or MI) which has a +6dB per octave rising response so as frequency increases signal voltage increases, and so bass to treble has signals differing by 60dB (corrected to 40dB by record EQ). You have groove noise of all kinds which isn't corrected by record EQ and goes beyond audio limits and so is more than a thousand to one in ratio, and an op-amp which changes its behaviour (due to feed-forward) between 200Hz and 10MHz. I wouldn't swear by it, I swear at it! But they all know best. They all know better than me. Even when my patent is granted hopefully within the coming weeks, they'll still all know better. Magnetic cartridge preamplification is a pain at the best of times. By making it 10 times more difficult (the MC outputs 1/10th on average less than MM) it becomes superior??? Yeah, it's crying out for it (indeed?) ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2018 at 7:50pm
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Well they both work and I admire the technical skill necessary from experts like Graham to make this so. I am enjoying my Golding 1042 at the moment, admittedly through a very fine Accession M preamp. It is different to the Hana SL low output moving coil which the Accession MC gets the best out of in my opinion. Someone asked me recently about going to MC and I did share my view which is you'll spend a lot of effort and money to get the benefit. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2018 at 9:35pm
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By the way I have been informed that my US patent grants on November 6th. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2018 at 9:58pm
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That's great news Graham. Is it for the Accession M? ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2018 at 10:03pm
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It covers the technology in the M and MC, and anything else which does similarly. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2018 at 10:09pm
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Congratulations Graham! ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2018 at 11:02pm
------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2018 at 11:14pm
| +2 |
Posted By: Aussie Mick
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2018 at 12:12am
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+3 ------------- Rega RP8 - Apheta 2 - Accession MC Enigma PS -Solo ULDE (Focal Utopia) - PS Audio M700 - Fical Kanta No2 |
Posted By: Drewan77
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2018 at 6:45am
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Well done Graham, please keep swimming upstream! ------------- Older than I once was, younger than I'll be ............................. Andrew |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2018 at 8:29am
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Well done Graham, getting a Patent granted is no mean feat. ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2018 at 11:01am
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Great news on the patent, Graham! ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: gwebster
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2018 at 11:17am
| Congratulations on the US patent. Any news on UK or elsewhere? |
Posted By: Ernie
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2018 at 12:41pm
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Well done Graham, I’m waiting to add some more of your gear into my system. Accession MM Majestic Proprii Lautus Spatia Grove Runner?? Really should try headphones at some point too. ------------- There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary and those who don't. |