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Best all-rounder?

Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: And the rest
Forum Name: Amplification
Forum Description: Share your interests or views on amplifiers, preamps, etc
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=185
Printed Date: 28 Mar 2024 at 10:20am
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Topic: Best all-rounder?
Posted By: Graham Slee
Subject: Best all-rounder?
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2008 at 7:07am
One of the most difficult decisions for me is whether to go all-out for an incredible sound that only works with some gear and some records or to go for a safer "sounds good all-round" solution that may not quite reach the same heady heights, but is still good and worthy of carrying our name.

Here I'm talking about splitting hairs - one is a "gnats" better but swap a source or a pair of headphones for example, and the loss is greater than going for a "gnats" less.

But in forum land where reputations are now won or lost at the click of the mouse keys of those who shout loudest, going for the best all-rounder can be taken as something abominable.

Just think about it: Forum land dictates that the component world stalwarts which have done sterling service and many wonders for the ears of the masses are now total crap, to use their language.

Such electronic components are rubbished vehemently and to justify their stance these people will purposely look up the cheapest distributor price and quote it to their massed audience who will then all join in the chorus like vigilantes, snubbing anyone who dares to try to do anything good.

Very often their "approved" component is only a matter of pence more, but that is carefully excluded from the argument and like all vigilantes the following mob never bothers to find out or even care.

How unfashionable it is to own an old Alba amplifier for example. You are only chic nowadays if you own a Naim or Musical Fidelity for example, even though that old Alba may be able to run rings around the others in the musical satisfaction stakes.

Take for example the Sennheiser HD250 headphone: Where has it gone? It looks like Sennheiser have discontinued it. Why? Forum land that's why! The HD250 helped me hear all the things many of our phono preamp customers now take for granted. I know the HD600 and 650 could have never revealed these important musical treats which I needed to hear to confirm important performance criteria. I and all who try them with the Solo love them to bits and end up preferring them to the 600/650's. The exception being one reviewer but why? Could it have been the influence of the forums?

So how do I justify using in a world beating performer, a component that forum land dictates is wrong? If so then the ears that just heard the world beating performance will then deny what they just heard!

And what about the knowledge of these forum dictators? Listen, I've done exactly the same here as they do, pushing my doctrine against those who think different - it's not nice is it? And in some cases my own intelligence on these side subjects has been found a tad wanting.

Do we have to fight the equivalent of a courtroom battle to prevent customers drifting away en-mass simply because we proved a forum no-no beat the sh1t out of a forum favourite? But forum land denied its ears and said we got it wrong?

This, I suppose, was the reason I set up our own forum community. But compared to one very influential forum, we are nothing - our voice is a whisper.

What's your take?








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That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps



Replies:
Posted By: tg [RIP]
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2008 at 8:40am
Graham,
some very broad ranging questions there and while it is understandable (and no doubt wisest) that you do not quote specifics, it leaves me in the dark as to whether you are talking in general, about HP amps, or about phono preamps.
I am left guessing that there has been unfavourable discussion of your choice of opamps in one or the other (or both) on either d1y4ud10 or h34df1 combined with a decline in sales.

My take WRT both those is that there a number of prolific posters who delight in mudslinging and WRT the latter, many of the membership are young and impressionable and very given to FOTM impulse spending.
Personally, while I might browse them for info and views I do use fairly heavy filtering.

WRT design choices, I see no reason for you to deviate from your proven formula of selecting the most appropriate component on specification and then tweaking it to the max with plenty of listening testing and peer review from trusted ears.  At least, I have gathered that is how you do it.

From a sales POV, nothing beats enthusiastic owners but they are closely followed by enthusiastic and supportive dealers, generally enthusiastic specialists rather than box shifters, though no doubt the box shifters are useful for the lower models in the range.
Certainly a niche dealer with sufficient faith in the product to offer a 7 day trial or return was a big factor in my taking the plunge to try the EGV - it was a significant investment for me and then only taken after I had opportunity to trial a similar price range phono in my system for a few days to estimate the amount of improvement to be had.
Others who have had opportunity to hear it have also purchased after having trialled for themselves.
The more mature music lovers likely to invest in the top line phono stages are usually much more aware of system synergies and so less likely to either dismiss a component out of hand or conversely to purchase without trial.

I would have severe reservations about purchasing a component that while jaw-droppingly good with some particular components and recordings was disappointing with others.
I think whatever makes most of my recordings sound very good and some brilliant is more my choice.
That said, the reviewers I take most notice of are those whose musical preferences and other equipment choices reflect my own - their ears I can trust - many others like things that just "do not do it" for me.

FWIW - chic bothers me not a wit - good music, well replayed; that is what I want.
I know/know of very few Naim owners and relatively few MF owners - but then I am in the antipodes with all the other "bloody colonials", many I know use amps made here and not just from patriotism or price either, admittedly many of those also use thermionic emission valves (mine too :p)


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2008 at 10:24am
Not just the forums you mention...

No decline in sales yet...

Just wrestling with the truth that a particularly disliked component is ******* all over the chic one. The one we were levered into using a while ago through public (forum) pressure. A case of "I am going to dictate the success or failure of Mr Slee and if he doesn't call my tune I will personally see to it through forum land that he is ruined". Believe me, that has been the case twice in our 10 year history. And those reading this will know who they are. They hold great power - satanic power.

They have convinced the non-tg's of this world that anything using a particular technology or component or idea is total ****.

In my experience for every tg there is a few million non-tg's.

And the few million non-tg's are not only easily misled, they lust after it.

And with more and more review magazines showing under the bonnet pictures, and with so many reviewers making judgement on what they see rather than what they hear, or telling themselves they are hearing what they aren't hearing becauce of a jaundiced view, do I simply go ahead and launch a product containing such an item?

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That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: ManuelC
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2008 at 12:10pm
Graham,
 
You've made a name for yourself and earned excellent reviews by working the way you feel is right, and making the best products you can. I suppose that's the only answer. I placed an order because I believe in recovering the sound that's in the grooves in the truest, unhindered way possible. There you go.


Posted By: tg [RIP]
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2008 at 12:23pm
As Alice would say, this gets curiouser and curiouser.
Am I going to have to trawl through past threads to find out what you used before ? Wink
Hard call, go with your ears, have Dejan & Leo have a listen - try and pick your reviewers - you probably know by now who will actually listen to it.
Pray - much stress is caused by trying to control outcomes that are beyond our control.
It is sufficient that we do that which disturbs our conscience the least.


Posted By: Dave Millier
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2008 at 1:11pm
Been thinking about your question.

I was looking at the specs of a Behringer analogue equalizer the other day. I noticed that one of the selling points was a valve sound control. You can disable this feature or boost it to taste.  Reviewers called it a "niceness" control: the choice is yours - listen to the recording at it is or dial in some warmth.

As far as I have been able to ascertain, the purpose of any "hifi" amplifier is to pass a signak from input to output without affecting the sound in anyway (other than gain, of course).  So, if the recording sounds poor, it should sound poor but louder at the other end.

But as we all know, 99% of recordings don't actually do hifi justice, so Niceness might save the day. I like the idea as long as it can be adjusted or disabled.

(By the way, the Barb Jungr 96Khz, 24bit downloads from Linn's website really do sound fantastic on anything. If nothing else, recordings like that make very clear that improving the recording is a lot more successful at improving the reproduced sound than any efforts you or any other designer can make after the fact.  If all records were made to the highest standards possible, just about any hifi kit would be capable of producing effortless superb sound).

  

Originally posted by Graham Slee Graham Slee wrote:

One of the most difficult decisions for me is whether to go all-out for an incredible sound that only works with some gear and some records or to go for a safer "sounds good all-round" solution that may not quite reach the same heady heights, but is still good and worthy of carrying our name.

Here I'm talking about splitting hairs - one is a "gnats" better but swap a source or a pair of headphones for example, and the loss is greater than going for a "gnats" less.

But in forum land where reputations are now won or lost at the click of the mouse keys of those who shout loudest, going for the best all-rounder can be taken as something abominable.

Just think about it: Forum land dictates that the component world stalwarts which have done sterling service and many wonders for the ears of the masses are now total crap, to use their language.

Such electronic components are rubbished vehemently and to justify their stance these people will purposely look up the cheapest distributor price and quote it to their massed audience who will then all join in the chorus like vigilantes, snubbing anyone who dares to try to do anything good.

Very often their "approved" component is only a matter of pence more, but that is carefully excluded from the argument and like all vigilantes the following mob never bothers to find out or even care.

How unfashionable it is to own an old Alba amplifier for example. You are only chic nowadays if you own a Naim or Musical Fidelity for example, even though that old Alba may be able to run rings around the others in the musical satisfaction stakes.

Take for example the Sennheiser HD250 headphone: Where has it gone? It looks like Sennheiser have discontinued it. Why? Forum land that's why! The HD250 helped me hear all the things many of our phono preamp customers now take for granted. I know the HD600 and 650 could have never revealed these important musical treats which I needed to hear to confirm important performance criteria. I and all who try them with the Solo love them to bits and end up preferring them to the 600/650's. The exception being one reviewer but why? Could it have been the influence of the forums?

So how do I justify using in a world beating performer, a component that forum land dictates is wrong? If so then the ears that just heard the world beating performance will then deny what they just heard!

And what about the knowledge of these forum dictators? Listen, I've done exactly the same here as they do, pushing my doctrine against those who think different - it's not nice is it? And in some cases my own intelligence on these side subjects has been found a tad wanting.

Do we have to fight the equivalent of a courtroom battle to prevent customers drifting away en-mass simply because we proved a forum no-no beat the sh1t out of a forum favourite? But forum land denied its ears and said we got it wrong?

This, I suppose, was the reason I set up our own forum community. But compared to one very influential forum, we are nothing - our voice is a whisper.

What's your take?








Posted By: stuxter
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2008 at 1:14pm
 If all records were made to the highest standards possible, just about any hifi kit would be capable of producing effortless superb sound).
do you really think so ???


Posted By: ManuelC
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2008 at 2:21pm
 
"As far as I have been able to ascertain, the purpose of any "hifi" amplifier is to pass a signal from input to output without affecting the sound in anyway (other than gain, of course).  So, if the recording sounds poor, it should sound poor but louder at the other end." Originally posted by Dave Millier.Clap
I agree 100%. And I feel that messing with anything at the source won't help much.


Posted By: stuxter
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2008 at 2:56pm
Originally posted by ManuelC ManuelC wrote:

 
"As far as I have been able to ascertain, the purpose of any "hifi" amplifier is to pass a signal from input to output without affecting the sound in anyway (other than gain, of course).  So, if the recording sounds poor, it should sound poor but louder at the other end." Originally posted by Dave Millier.
I agree 100%. And I feel that messing with anything at the source won't help much.
 
 
In a perfect world, this would be the perfect amplifier!!
In reality, this does not exist !
 


Posted By: ManuelC
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2008 at 3:44pm
Quite. I take the quoted words as a useful guideline.


Posted By: stuxter
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2008 at 4:02pm
I think the same could be said about loudspeakers
a perfect speaker would be one that added nothing and took nothing away from the signal fed to it.
In reallity , in every speaker design there is a trade off of some kind !!
you could by the most nuetral source, amp, speakers and cabling, and it can still sound like a sack of sh*te !! 
Its a f*****g minefield
 
im also a big believer that room acoustics will ultimately dictate how good its going to sound through loudspeakers, with bass frequencies being the most difficult to get right Confused


Posted By: Cyreg
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2008 at 4:07pm
Well no........, I don't agree at all. Shocked
Messing with the source (LP) is what all different turntables/arms/cartridges combi's do.
Mechanical influence in one way or another changes the sourcesound very very much.
So even if we did have "straight wire amplifications" (luckily the Reflex has build in a correction Smile) we must live with that.
And let's not forget the variables on the other side of the sound-chain.
 
AFAIK; in my mediocre system, if I make a change in one piece of the chain, I'll have to change or adjust some others (cables, placement etc) to give me the better result I like.
It's never a question of get-out/drop-in change and OK for me. Han


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TecnoDec/RB250/MP110>GramAmp2C/PSU1; Cyrus CD8SE; Cyrus FM7 > Exposure XXXV > Harbeth C7ES-3 '35th Anniversary'
cabling: IC 3x DNM V3; LScable Exposure DMF-two; Furu TP60 + MWaY and AH! powercords   


Posted By: stuxter
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2008 at 10:13pm
Originally posted by Cyreg Cyreg wrote:

Well no........, I don't agree at all. Shocked
Messing with the source (LP) is what all different turntables/arms/cartridges combi's do.
Mechanical influence in one way or another changes the sourcesound very very much.
So even if we did have "straight wire amplifications" (luckily the Reflex has build in a correction Smile) we must live with that.
And let's not forget the variables on the other side of the sound-chain.
 
AFAIK; in my mediocre system, if I make a change in one piece of the chain, I'll have to change or adjust some others (cables, placement etc) to give me the better result I like.
It's never a question of get-out/drop-in change and OK for me. Han
Ok , if its `straightwire`sound your heart and ears desire............
if you have ever had the privelage (brain drain)of mixing in a studio, the monitoring system is  ruthlessley revealing and uncloured and not at all musical( ask Graham) and a second (coloured) pair of monitors is required to`judge`the sound, to get a feel of how its gonna sound on a domestic system  . Its not for sitting back and listening, it is used as a tool. So in reallity, a slight colouration of sound on a domestic system is something that you would not want to be without. Smile


Posted By: Dave Millier
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2008 at 10:20pm
The quality of the original recording and the room acoustics are the most important factors IMO.

The room acoustics completely swamp the tonal differences between equipment. How can some tiny subtle improvement in say soundstage width between amps compare in significance with a 25bB resonant boom from the room at say 75Hz? The boom will absolutely dominate the sound.

But even if you are lucky with the acoustics and have a system whose colourations sit well with the room characteristics, there is still the question of recording quality.

IMO the differences in recording quality between a selection of typical commerical recordings are at least 10x larger than the differences between say a Dual 505 and a Pink Triangle turntable (or a NAD 3020 and a Mark Levinson or Acoustic Research or Krell amps)...

It's amazing how good my Barb Jungr recordings sound and how bad "Inflammable Material" sounds.  So many pop/rock recordings are horribly compressed, muddy sounding wall of sound effect. The Linn recordings are so "open" and spacius and dynamic in comparison.   

Originally posted by stuxter stuxter wrote:

I think the same could be said about loudspeakers
a perfect speaker would be one that added nothing and took nothing away from the signal fed to it.
In reallity , in every speaker design there is a trade off of some kind !!
you could by the most nuetral source, amp, speakers and cabling, and it can still sound like a sack of sh*te !! 
Its a f*****g minefield
 
im also a big believer that room acoustics will ultimately dictate how good its going to sound through loudspeakers, with bass frequencies being the most difficult to get right Confused


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2008 at 10:38pm
"Dynamic Range Compression ( DRC ) has been used for years to help improve the quality of music played through lo-fi transmission systems like AM radio and telephones, but increasingly heavy handed compression has also been applied to recordings at the mastering stage.........play this recording through a hi-fi system and the sound seems lacking. Because it is....it's lacking in dynamic range "
 
So says Alan Sircom in Hi-Fi Choice,
 
Sorry, I was bored and went out to look for an air-rifle magazine, and ended up with my annual Hi-Fi mag !
 
The " Turn Me UP " organiastion ( http://www.turnmeup.org - www.turnmeup.org ) is trying to promote the idea of cutting quieter albums, with stickers on recordings with " full dynamic range "
 
Adrian.


Posted By: stuxter
Date Posted: 27 Jun 2008 at 8:20am
@ dave `im leaving ` millier... for once we actually agree on somethingWink
 
@ab pest.... couldnt agree more.... who... with a top notch system, is gonna sit down and listen to GIRLS ALOUD. If they mixed one of thier albums to sound good on hi-fi, then its gonna sound poop on radio !   Confused


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 27 Jun 2008 at 12:53pm
Well it's a good job that this old retro item blows the crap out of all the chic-boutique favourites!

@ tg: I'm sorry this is so sketchy but until the trade feel comfortable with this "shocker" of a product I can't really say or even hint.

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That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: tg [RIP]
Date Posted: 27 Jun 2008 at 1:29pm
Yes, that is OK - I have made some guesses anyway Censored
Can't find a way to weld the covers on the review samples can you ?
A quick spot with a MIG torch on the screw heads should do it, just enough to stop them being removed (block up the slots) - quench with a wet rag straight after - shouldn't have time for heat transfer to damage anything - I've welded right next to windscreen seals this way without damaging the rubber.
You would just have to drill the screws to get them out afterwards.
I'm probably being silly - good luck with it anyway.



Posted By: ManuelC
Date Posted: 27 Jun 2008 at 1:47pm
Well Han,
 
Right, all equipment we use tampers with the source, but I believe that happens because we can't help it- it would cost millions to record and reproduce perfectly a quiet, casual conversation.
The idea is that it would be good to be able to reproduce the original recording (in itself a whole mix of technical and artistical choices and circumstances) as best as we can, nothing added, nothing filtered (hint).
 
But, of course, as it was very well put, even our listening rooms become factors, let alone our ears and the time of day.


Posted By: dvv
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2008 at 10:42pm
I always seem to find these great topics last ...
 
Graham, if you recall, we talked about this very phenomenon some years ago. I can't remember if Alba was mentioned, but I do remember saying that an integrated from Amstrad, while hardly a revelation, did sound way better than one would epect, better than some competing far better known models, and all that at about a third of their price. But hey, that's Amstrad, the "all but the kitchen sink" company, what do they know about good sound?
 
Perhaps an even better illustration of the mud we are wallowing in is a Sanyo integrated amp, which appeared in the early 80-ies. It used STK power modules when they were truly horrible (unless you used them at half their rated power, but they are infinitely better these days) and, as with many Sanyo Marubeni products, it was feature rich and cheap. As far as I have been able to ascertain, it has appeared as an OEM product by quite a few companies, mostly from Germany: Saba, Nordmende, BASF and as Lenco from Switzerland.
 
If tested as a Sanyo model, it not only got thumbs down, it also got a kick in its electronic arse - yes folks, this is a bad karma product. But if the IDENTICAL in all respects but the external looks product with a different name came by (yes, I did check, I did compare the schematics, I did compare the parts, etc), hey, it was all right, no big deal, but all right. Never mind that it cost more - or perhaps that's why it was "better".
 
Product sharing like that has been around since those days, but invariably with the same result. Yet, for one who knows, an inverse deal was also possible - if you bought a nominally German, but actually Japan made Palladium integrated amp, you really bought a Pioneer SA-8500 Mk.2 repackaged, paying around 20-25% LESS than for the "real" Pioneer.
 
Graham, it's all in the marketing. Marketing is when you add say two totally useless but also zero harm diodes in your say DC Servo circuit, and call it an "Intelligent DC Input Output Transformation", or IDIOT. You just have to have an acronym, man, without it, you ain't whole! Wink 
 
I already suggested, and I repeat what I'd do in your place - I would very seriously consider an all discrete circuit. Op amps are just fine, but it is a fact that they are closed, they sound the way they do and there's little you can do about it. In a dicrete circuit, you keep absolute control over how it sounds and lose nothing in the process, even if it is more complex and involving (but also more fun!). Actually, you not only do not lose, you gain if you put your heart into it. You end up with a veritable monster, which at 10V rms has a noise and THD factor of just 0,05% - but at 500 kHz! Under the same conditions, Noise+THD at 20 kHz is below -100 dB, or 0.001%. I think - I can't measure below that. Nor do I want to, frankly, there's no point.
 
I could ramble on for some time, but I'll spare you the torture - let me just repeat that you are now in a situation where you realistically HAVE to come out with a monstrosity of some kind. Never mind if it sells, it's primary job is to highlight your technical prowess and thus rub off some stardust on the regular line. Heck, everybody and their dog did it, how do you expect to get out of it?
 
If you have a problem with starting the ball rolling, let me know and I'll supply a few circuits FYI, you can use either them, or simply as a starting point for your own, whatever, so long as you do do it. I hereby publically renounce any and all royalties on any basis, except for another pint, of course, you don't get out of that.
 
As for helping out in any way I can, well, I still have the same address and, oddly enough, the same enthusisam as I did when we met, despite a few more years and kilos under my belt. I'll help any way I can.
 
But, before you do anything, excluding only doing nothing, I want you to sit down and calmly think over a shunt regulator. Then make a model and listen to your own Solo and try to believe it's the same one from just a minute ago. It ain't gonna be easy! It's that much better.
 
Cheers,
DVV
 
P.S. Graham, I can't find where I activate the feature which informs me of new messages in a thread I am following. Being the Lord of the Site, kindly activate it for me.


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True audio lives on the fringes of the industry.


Posted By: tg [RIP]
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2008 at 12:14am
@dvv - the man is away on hols for a week - http://www.gspaudio-community.activeboards.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=193
Normal programming will resume shortly :D



Posted By: dvv
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2008 at 7:31pm
Ooops, sorry TG, I didn't see ...
 
Tough luck then, because I'm off for my holidays this coming Friday. No Internet, no messages, just my notebook, me and some ideas I can hardly wait to work (a bit) on. I'll be back on August 7 in the evening; it's pretty convenient to have Greece just 8 hours of reasonable driving away - well, that's 10 hours when you include border crossings and coffee stops. Less, if you also include speeding ... LOL
 
Though the term "speeding" is highly relative. In Greece, most highways are speed limited to 110 or 120 km/h. Then you see the cops smile when every Greek worth his salt does what comes naturally to them - put the pedal to the metal, and damn the petrol costs. Take off your Mr Nice crown and put the hammer down. Go as fast as your car can manage, literally, the fortunate part being that most cars in Greece have 1,400 cc engines, I am told the tax man starts being brutal above that. And I'm sitting in my 2 liter car ... Embarrassed
 
And you wonder why I go to Greece every summer ... LOLLOLLOL


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True audio lives on the fringes of the industry.



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