Is High End dying?
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Topic: Is High End dying?
Posted By: musicdude
Subject: Is High End dying?
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2013 at 9:24pm
I don't think so because technology gets better and more affordable ...?  http://www.stereophile.com/content/rip-high-end-audio - http://www.stereophile.com/content/rip-high-end-audio ------------- Andy ProJect Xtension 10 with Clearaudio Charisma V2, GA2 SE, Majestic DAC, CuSat50, Yamaha CD-S1000, Yamaha M-80, Revel F-52. |
Replies:
Posted By: mitch65
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2013 at 11:07pm
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I've not heard Linn and Naim complaining recently. Most so called high-end manufacturers are just embracing new technologies faster than they used to to tap into the mass consumer market. I remember when Linn said they would never make a CD player because it couldn't compete, sound wise, with the LP12. Of course they ended up making very good CD players but fast forward a few years and they have taken the bold step of mothballing their CD range in favour of streamers because, pound for pound, they outperform their CD players (quote). High-end, IMO, had a Eureka moment, why would you buy a NaimUniti or a Linn Klimax when I could just get a Squeezebox - simple! make it a premium product. Hey, it's just my 'wine induced' opinion but that's how I look at it.  ------------- Greg Rega Planer 3 Gram Amp 2 Audiolab 8000A Auralic Aries Mini Russell K 50 |
Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2013 at 11:19pm
------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
mitch65 wrote:Posted By: mitch65
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2013 at 11:33pm
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that's the 64,000 dollar question, I demoed 3 streamers before buying and, really , it's no different to buying CD players. A Naim Streamer sounds very similar to a Naim CD player. I've owned a streamer from another manufacturer and it really was not as good as the Naim but it was a lot cheaper. The functionality was similar but not as seamless and, like with any product, it is built to a price point. ------------- Greg Rega Planer 3 Gram Amp 2 Audiolab 8000A Auralic Aries Mini Russell K 50 |
Posted By: 11rushgarrick11
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 3:10am
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Hmm... That is a good question and one that has crossed my own mind whilst daydreaming on these early morns. One thing for sure is that the face of audio has changed. This happened quite some time back in my honest opinion. If you take a look for example at hifi magazines, the ultimate pursuit for high fidelity seemed to get pushed to one side as the audio visual boom took its place. Flicking through the pages of popular high street magazines you would see more and more column inches given over to flat screen tvs and multi channel amps. It also, at least to me seemed that certain smaller high end companies were falling by the wayside. For sure there was a blip whilst all this was happening. Certain companies began to push DVD audio or SACD but neither really took hold. Point here being there were still a faithful few who were still interested in the reproduction of audio. Then comes phase two but now with more gusto. The compressed file, mp3, flac aac etc... It almost at least for this listener looking out into the audio world seemed for a while that the faithful reproduction of music had been tossed out of the window. Everything had a prefix of the letter I and people were happy to listen to 128kbs files but still look fashionable whilst doing it. If your wondering to my point in relation to high end however, it is that the above two movements/events changed the face of the audio world and that high end never died it just became squeezed. On thinking right here and now, did it actually allow this new now smaller market to become more high end. We were now somehow a minority which can definitely be exploited if we were not too careful. High end had just become more specialist. Having said all of the above perhaps I myself have my blinkers on as its not just the reproduction of stereo that has a high end. If I can come back to the hifi mags and as much as we like them or hate them, they adapt to their customer base, I for one am seeing less £11,000+ amplifiers been mentioned. (Removed names just incase) etc.. even my own faves if i may mention them, Sugden seemed to be cropping up less and less on the pages of the nations monthly reads. As mentioned above many companies have adapted and diversified and there still is a market for them, they themselves are creating new ones. Is it coming full circle? More and more folk are, or at least seem to be interested in audio quality again. Look at the sudden surge in dac purchases... On reflection, I was in a large department store and a young chap was buying a heavily discounted pair of skull candy headphones. It made me think perhaps nothing's changing at all. Is high end dying? It's been through the mill, there are times where it's been on life support but its still fighting fit... It's just had to move a little, shall we say down size (in terms of market share I may add not quality). That's my two pass labs worth ;) Take care all  ------------- the real art of conducting consists in transistors :p |
Posted By: Task1
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 3:37am
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Hi, I'm new here but feel i have to through in my tuppence worth! High End isn't dying its becoming more accessible. Computer audio, finally, has reversed the trend of quantity versus quality- lossless files are easy to make from the purchased CD and easy to replay from computers. Mr Slee helps us to convert these digital bits into HQ audio which is then played on our systems which range from cheap and cheerful to ___Ludicrous! So high end isn't dying- but perhaps elitism is. Sandy ------------- Does it really matter? |
Posted By: 11rushgarrick11
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 6:27am
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Interesting thoughts, varied path but same conclusion. I don't think high end depending on definition is becoming more accessible from a view point. I see it heading further away at least from a monetary sense. I do agree you get a better return for your money in some but not all cases I do agree the trend of quality vs quantity has or is been reversed finally and about time. Its here we part though as I don't see having just a lossless file sat on a pc fed, dac'd then amped as high end. I agree it may be high quality but to me high end is the dream worthy dacs or the amplifiers you aspire (through kidney harvest, joke) to own. I think that the cost of these are ever increasing if in no part due to time and research more than exotic materials or components. And possibly a smaller market/audience High end though I agree is still alive even in an economic slump. High end will always have its place. In companies with tiers it allows over time for the tech to be filtered down. It also sells lesser models I do believe in some part. Lets say you are buying erh.. go on we will pick audionote you still feel you are buying into that family and also lets face it your machine might be within 90% the quality of their top model. Don't forget diminishing returns at a certain point. ...I hope and believe high end will always be around. Its what researchers get out of bed for and the audiophile few to drool over. ------------- the real art of conducting consists in transistors :p |
Posted By: mitch65
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 8:38am
For me, it's a mental thing. How can something streamed from a hard drive sound as good as a CD or vinyl and, thus, how can it be high-end? It doesn't really matter that streaming on my system sounds, pretty much, as good as CD (but not vinyl  ).I think once the technology has matured it will then break down barriers and become the medium of choice for 'audiophiles' that CD once was. (oh, and CD will be resigned to that of a niche product just like vinyl  )------------- Greg Rega Planer 3 Gram Amp 2 Audiolab 8000A Auralic Aries Mini Russell K 50 |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 8:41am
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The high end is good if it is about proper research and development which delivers results. Unfortunately a good proportion of the high end is as risky as a frozen lasagne! Just how can you tell that it's real beef and not horse meat? When put in a position of having to read manufacturers claims I am able to spot horse meat, but are you able? ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: 11rushgarrick11
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 9:27am
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Could not agree more with both of you...!!! So.... agreed Miche at this moment in time I'm quite happy keep the files on cd it's a psychological thing (although give time I will factually swear its merits)  And without genuine research we end up with nice shiny pretty boxes with little substance in the middle and the same can be said for the sound. I once auditioned a product all i'll say is the initials M and L only on closer in depth inspection jeepers how dare you ask that much  "Unfortunately a good proportion of the high end is as risky as a frozen lasagne!" Still chuckling to myself... Take care  ------------- the real art of conducting consists in transistors :p |
Posted By: mitch65
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 9:50am
I was just having that very discussion with my wife as were walking the dog, do we trust what we are told? No, not anymore! I can't tell horsemeat from real beef (we make our own lasagne, by the way) anymore than I can break down manufacturers claims about their latest wares. I know I am not taken in by bling boxes (I have Naim for goodness sake!) I just like how it sounds.............OK I do have a 'pink' RP6 (you can have that one ).My wife thinks that consumers like to see what their money is getting them by putting amps, etc. in fancy clothes (carved out of one piece of solid gold, don't you know) on them and supplying lint-free gloves to handle them. ------------- Greg Rega Planer 3 Gram Amp 2 Audiolab 8000A Auralic Aries Mini Russell K 50 |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 10:23am
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I subscribe to a high-end audio blog which delivers an email every day with details of the most extravagant kit you could imagine. Amplifiers for $50,000, speakers for $100,000, that sort of thing. The bling factor is enormous as it has to look as though it's worth that much. The thing is, someone, somewhere (with too much money and too little common sense, maybe) must be buying this stuff. But I suppose if it costs $5,000 to make a pair of speakers, selling them for $100,000 means you don't need to sell more than 1 pair to be laughing all the way to the bank (while sniggering at someone's gullibility, no doubt). ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 11:31am
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I guess by doing it that way you remove the inevitable cash flow problems proper businesses have to cope with. Obviously proper business owners want such practices to stop. It's not that these items can perform like a Maserati, ours can do that, and are much more reasonably priced. I have noticed that a few brands are being mentioned above, and OK, it's in context, so I won't play the T&C card, but having been around a few years I can remember some of the claims they made, and obviously some have been taken in. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: mitch65
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 12:07pm
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Sounds the drubbing DD turntables got back in the early 70's by a certain manufacturer. No I won't mention their name this time as most people will know. Didn't mean to sail too close to the wind with names and you obviously appreciate the context they were mentioned but I will try to be more subtle in the future. just a thought Graham, do you have designs on a streamer in the future? Not knowing R+D costs for such a venture or whether it really interests you. ------------- Greg Rega Planer 3 Gram Amp 2 Audiolab 8000A Auralic Aries Mini Russell K 50 |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 12:15pm
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Do you mean a music server? Or a 'wide ranging' DAC? If not, we have a http://www.gspaudio.co.uk/bitzie-usb-dac-external-soundcard.htm - USB DAC right now (err, we expect the first to ship on Feb 21st) ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: 11rushgarrick11
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 12:18pm
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I was going ask this question in a new thread but it seems quite fitting here. I wonder if folk who spend such inflated prices hear anything different. Let me expand. I don't mean sonically! As pointed out some bold claims have been made and I for one have seen £200 kit wrapped up with a £1000+ price tag. I mean is there a placebo effect for want of a better word. Do they hear something that isn't there? We all want our new purchase to sound remarkably better and I imagine the greater the outlay the greater the want. As I mentioned on the new comers page I myself made mistakes before uni and when I was younger, I thought that throwing money at the task would deliver the desired solution. I lost my favourite sounding setup this way and all without really giving it a thorough audition. I just assumed at the time mr big name was selling me more than snake oil. I think in no small part though magazines do a large disservice to their readers. I can't mention manufactures names but a certain pair of top iems where given a glowing review in a (again name removed) monthly audio magazine. Now if you head over to, I believe I can mention this head fi or the largest popular online store you will be lucky to find one or two folk who speak kindly of them. Obviously sound is a very subjective thing and that reviewer may like them. All I can echo is do your homework and above all let the the things on the side of your head and the squishy bit in the middle tell you it's what you want or need... I've waffled enough today, apologies  *just an edit, in a couple of my posts I may have sailed close to the T&Cs myself with the mention of certain brand names. All were used in context but I have amended where necessary) ------------- the real art of conducting consists in transistors :p |
Posted By: mitch65
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 12:19pm
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Yes, a music server just like a ..........no, you're not catching me out ;) ------------- Greg Rega Planer 3 Gram Amp 2 Audiolab 8000A Auralic Aries Mini Russell K 50 |
Posted By: hotmog
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 12:37pm
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High End, by definition, cannot ever die. It is, after all, just one end of a relative scale, and you cannot have a scale with only one end.... In the context of this thread, High End can either be taken to mean audio equipment that has been engineered to deliver sound quality as close to perfection as the limits of technology allow, or alternatively audio equipment that by inference must do this because of a price bracket it occupies that is pitched somewhere in the upper reaches of the stratosphere. It is to the latter that I think Graham was alluding in his earlier post. Equipment that delivers High End audio quality is generally going to come at a higher price than the average. However this does not automatically mean it has to be priced out of the reach of most of us mere mortals. Graham's products are a continuing testament to that. As well as the law of diminishing returns, I think that there is a certain snob factor involved too, where The Emperor's New Suit Of Clothes syndrome comes into play. How many audio reviewers would dare to risk their reputation by suggesting that an amplifier costing $10,000 performs no better than one costing $1000. And, how many people, having spent that kind of money, would admit privately to their friends or publicly on an audiophile forum that they had got it wrong? None - they would reason that they had actually not spent enough and needed to throw even more money after a vain pursuit of an impossible grail! What is this audio perfection anyway? Surely it is no more than the recreation in one's own front room of exactly the same listening experience as if you were at a live performance. But hang on a minute - the PA systems and loudspeakers used at a live concert are hardly state of the art in terms of audio quality, and as everyone knows, the sound in an audio system is only as good as its weakest link. So the quest for audio perfection in fact boils down to achieving the faithful reproduction of an imperfect source (I know this doesn't apply quite so much to studio recordings, but you get my drift). And all the while, most people are completely oblivious to the fact that their ear's sensitivity to upper frequencies is gradually and inexorably deteriorating with age...  So, like everything in this life, the attainment of perfection is an impossible dream. Let those with the financial resources and the Quixotic urge to do so pursue it if they must. Personally, I'm happy to accept the best performance for money compromise that I can get, and despite my relatively modest set-up in terms of cost, I think I'm more or less there.  ------------- http://www.victorian-breweriana.uk - Hotmog's Victorian Breweriana |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 12:43pm
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Great discussion with lots of useful information. I wish I had something new to add other than don't rely on reviews, always try before you buy anything expensive. Jon ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: 11rushgarrick11
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 12:44pm
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Hotmog..... so eloquently put !! ------------- the real art of conducting consists in transistors :p |
Posted By: mitch65
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 12:51pm
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Wonder what the dictionary definition of high-end is?1. Appealing to sophisticated and discerning customers: a high-end department store; high-end video equipment. ........oh OK, well that's all very clear then. ------------- Greg Rega Planer 3 Gram Amp 2 Audiolab 8000A Auralic Aries Mini Russell K 50 |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 12:52pm
I'm not saying we won't be doing one, and we've been looking at some way of doing a digital juke box, but we're primarily about the items that go between source and speakers/headphones. I do not practice the sport of catching people out. Stuff that's said innocently after reasonable consideration of the hosts commercial interests will not result in de-registration like it does on another make's forum (the make was mentioned above... in context). 11rushgarrick11 makes some good points. However, it is still very difficult for you all to get full marks for your homework. I have read about the unsuitability of cables because of their impedance - OK for powering a 3 bar electric heater I must add, but not for your speakers. This on another manufacturers site makes my blood boil. It is a poor substitute for real facts. OK, it is true that cables have characteristic impedance, but that's qualified by 'at x frequency', and I don't believe for one minute that speakers will reproduce the radio frequencies that would refer to. But this type of advertising is typical of the high-end. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: mitch65
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 12:55pm
 ------------- Greg Rega Planer 3 Gram Amp 2 Audiolab 8000A Auralic Aries Mini Russell K 50 |
Posted By: Paulreso1
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 1:58pm
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I have just revived an interest in hifi after a 20 year or so hiatus, during that time, the importance of computer based digital files as a source has increased beyond all recognition, so consideration of the future of high end (whether defined by price, audio quality or a combination) must include consideration of the playback of high quality computer based audio files. I am experienced in IT and have worked in the computer industry for 15 years on the hardware side, however, for the general public, I would say that achieving high quality results from computer/NAS source files remains a little complex both in relation to set up and optimisation. In addition to the innate clunkyness of the technology itself, Retailers have varying levels of expertise with these systems, which can limit their uptake. If the future of high end is dependent, at least to some significant extent, on building systems incorporating high quality playback of high resolution digital source files, then more needs to be done to improve the ease of use of these types of system, and to extend the expertise of the retailer networks to allow potential customers who are less knowledgable in IT and networking a path to feel comfortable with such systems. From the product design point of view, there are new possibilities regarding the most useful equipment spec and functionality to offer this newish market - as exemplified by The Big DAC thread on Graham's Forum. In addition to addressing the optimal product configurations, there is the issue of user interface and ease of use that only good product design will address........ I do not believe that the business of High End HiFi can be sustained by vinyl and CD based systems alone. |
Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 2:51pm
The reason I'm so keen on Ethernet input is because my computer is a long way from the HiFi rack, but can be connected via Ethernet and Homeplugs. I don't know another way of getting hires files streamed over this distance. ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: mrarroyo
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 8:53pm
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I have used a Squeezebox V3 (currently have two) for a few years and also had a Touch(broke twice so I got rid of it). The convenience of loading all my music on the computer and stream it to other parts of the house while controlling it with an iPad or an iPhone is just to much to pass. For those on the fence I would suggest you try one and see what all the fuss is about. ------------- Miguel |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 9:08pm
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I'd echo Miguel's comments. A music server is fairly easy to start up, can be improved and is very convenient. My best advice is rip high (bit rate, preferably lossless) so you can transfer or convert a large high quality if you upgrade your server/streamer. Jon ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: mrarroyo
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2013 at 11:12am
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Go lossless! I have had to re-rip my collection three times, not fun and I still have about 1/2 of the files to go. By going lossless you get a larger file but storage (hard drives) are cheap enough. ------------- Miguel |
Posted By: Suggs
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2013 at 1:02pm
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...and that also illustrates how essential it is to keep a separate back up hard drive...they will go wrong eventually and re-ripping an entire CD collection is only marginally more fun than nailing your head to a wardrobe.
------------- Derek |
Posted By: ServerBaboon
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2013 at 1:48pm
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For ultimate safety 2 backups one of which should be stored offsite (a relative), a 1 TB disk is only about £55 on Amazon much cheaper than the re ripping price. Will save me the time of ripping 600+ CDs, although if truth be told I suspect that I only really care about half that number. ------------- Steve ------------- Various bits of GSP Kit ..well two so far, unless you count the cables that is. |
Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2013 at 2:12pm
Where are the music files? Where is/are the DAC(s)? How are they networked? Are they any different in functionality from more expensive offerings from other brands? ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2013 at 2:49pm
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I have 6 Squeezebox players of varying types, which range from the SB3("Classic") to SB "Radios". They are dumb devices with a DAC in them, and have line outs; some have S/PDIF outs. The displays differ (later ones are touch screens), and some have built in speakers (Boom, and Radio). All are controlled by server software, the latest version being called Logitech Media Server (LMS). This runs on PCs, Macs, Linux and some NAS boxes. Initiating a command from the device sends this to the server which then acts upon it. So you can browse your albums on the device and select them to play, the server then pushes the data stream out to the correct device. Connection is by ethernet or wifi, and a system can have a mixture. I use homeplug ethernet for some devices, direct ethernet for my office Touch, and wifi for the bedroom and kitchen players. Any computer on the network can access the web interface of LMS (which in my case runs on a "headless" Windows Home Server computer) for album selection etc, and iPhone/iPad apps also connect as both controllers and additional players. My music files are stored on two separate NAS boxes (one running a mirrored drive), as well as the "live" library on the server itself. But LMS doesn't need to be on the same box as the library, though it ideally needs a wired connection rather than wireless. Each player has a DAC, but the Classic, Transporter, and Touch have digital out so an external DAC can be used. I also have a better power supply working with the Touch. The Squeezebox system is quite old now and, I think, unique, in that it's server software is open source. It was developed by a Californian company, Slim Devices, before Logitech bought them out. It's open nature is both its strength and its "weakness". Coming from an era when home networking was in its infancy, it's probably more IT-geeky than competing systems today. I have to admit my knowledge of more up to date systems is sketchy since I haven't looked past my system - and I intend to run my Squeezeboxes into the ground, and even bought another Touch as a spare recently. So maybe others can comment on more up to date systems. I use my SBs mainly for playing local files, but there is a mysqueezebox.com site for playing online content. It's also great for internet radio - Jazz Wyoming is a great station, for instance, and the newer players with the colour display are good for Spotify playback too. Two or more players can be synchronised with the same playlist - which is nice for parties - and all can play independently of course. I've tried it with 8 different playlists going at once, and it works a treat. Though some of the hardware is showing its age, the iPad app "iPeng" gives a thoroughly modern front end to it, which is all you normally see really - so providing the sound comes out all is well despite the age of some players. Talking of sound, the Transporter (the only proper audiophile-type component they made - it must be 'cos some folk put valves in it ) is still up there with my 12 month old Dutch NOS DAC, and though the built in DACs of other players certainly benefit from a good external DAC, without them they don't sound at all bad. I know the first time I ever got a SB running I had a grin from ear-to-ear for days, and I knew this was "the future" for music playback (other than vinyl, of course . . . ).Edit: Here's a pic of the iPeng app showing the players panel etc. I normally use it in landscape mode and have the album covers bigger. My son's SB Classic seems to be turned off as it's missing from the list. But you can get the idea.  ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2013 at 7:48pm
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Thanks Bob. I think I get the idea. Is it HiFi? It's a bit cleverer than what we do with iTunes, Airport Express and Apple TV. We have 3 AEs and 1 ATV. We can stream different music to different rooms, but have to use more than one iTunes library to do so. In two rooms the DACs used are those in the AEs which connect to line ins on the amps. In the cinema room the AE connects digitally to the DAC in an ageing (pre HDMI) AV receiver. In the sitting room, which is the main listening room, the ATV connects digitally to an external DAC (this is where Biggus DACcus will be trialled when available). With respect to party mode music around the house, which I really like (even when not partying) it all works really well. What I want is real HiFi and the ability to play HiRes files in the sitting room. I'm assuming, and I know it's open to debate, that there is/will be some SQ benefit from HiRes files. A better DAC will help, but it won't give be the ability to play HiRes files because of the way iTunes handles the files and the ATV resamples everything to 48kHz. This is why I keep asking about the possibility of a streamer Big DAC combo. ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2013 at 8:32pm
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It's definitely hifi Ifor! Well it is when the files are streamed to the Transporter or Touch (which has an external DAC and beefy PS). The question of whether hi-res files for playback are worth it is open to debate! I can't reliably distinguish between LP rips I've done at 96/24 and 48/24. But that may be my ageing ears of course. I think that the quality of the original recording and subsequent mastering is more important than bit rates over 44.1/16 (all things being equal - which I suppose they rarely are...) Does ATV resample 44.1 to 48? Or just downsample higher rates? I've never used ATV or AE so don't really know what they perform like. But I know there are many folk who swear by them and consider the SQ high. Maybe others here can comment?? ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2013 at 8:57pm
My current DAC (a 325 quid job) was a big step up from relying on an AE's DAC, but the streamed music isn't quite as good as playing the same music on my CD player. ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2013 at 9:25pm
Thank you SB. This is excellent advice for anyone using a computer for music, videos or other data. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2013 at 9:49pm
I use a Drobo at home so everything is safe unless the Drobo is stolen or the house burns down. For remote backup Crashplan is highly recommended. It backs everything up to a HDD attached to a friend's computer anywhere in the world. It's best to seed a disc locally with all your files before moving it to the remote location. It would take forever to load everything remotely, but incremental backups are fine. Best of all, it's free for non commercial use. Before I had the Drobo my local backups were on two external HDDs. The both failed within a few days of each other and I lost everything. Fortunately everything was backed up to my brother in Streatham via Crashplan. ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2013 at 10:32pm
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Sorry to hear that. You were very unlucky to have 2 discs fail like that ICL1P. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: musicdude
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2013 at 10:21pm
But then on an other thought I have to say that the source, the MUSIC is the culprit of the high end dying. I just mention "loudness war".  http://www.stereophile.com/content/winning-loudness-wars - http://www.stereophile.com/content/winning-loudness-wars ------------- Andy ProJect Xtension 10 with Clearaudio Charisma V2, GA2 SE, Majestic DAC, CuSat50, Yamaha CD-S1000, Yamaha M-80, Revel F-52. |
Posted By: 11rushgarrick11
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2013 at 7:28am
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Very good point that's been missed is the source/music. Not just the loudness war but bad recordings in general. One band in particular lets just say they are red hot have been championing the high fidelity service that mr Neil Young mentioned back in 2012, only to myself have some of the worst recordings my ears have ever heard. It doesn't matter how high end and how good the kit is, you need a good source to get the most. If anything, good kit shows up a bad recording more. We have a saying here in Yorkshire. I imagaine its used wider than here "you can't make a silk purse out of a sows........" ------------- the real art of conducting consists in transistors :p |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2013 at 8:50am
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. . . or GIGO: garbage in, garbage out ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2013 at 5:23pm
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The worst weapon in the loudness wars is brickwall limiting which distorts any peaks. But there are musical casualties from heavy multi-band compression that makes everything from intro to last chorus almost the same volume, just more or less squashed.
IMO a little compression is essential in mastering but too much removes any build-up or dynamic from a song. FIne for radio play, not great for hi-fi
------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2013 at 5:55pm
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I came across http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?97950-MEASUREMENTS-Some-Squeezebox-numbers-to-consider - this thread on the Squeezebox forum. Although a lot is specifically concerned with measurements of various SB devices, there is a lot of general interest - such as measurements of lossy v. lossless files, and differences in sampling rates. Quite a few "audiophile" myths are debunked - if you accept the findings - and a lot of what we've been saying here is echoed. BTW, anyone for purified air to get better wi-fi? Work your way through the thread . . . ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2013 at 9:23pm
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Thanks Bob, very interesting information and thought provoking. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: UKMach
Date Posted: 15 May 2014 at 12:06pm
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Hello all, Im new to the forum and interested in having a look at
Graham Slee products but this thread did catch my attention. Firstly my hifi source is my Arcam FMJ CD37. Does a good job but I have also aquired a syabus popcorn hour A410 media streamer and have films and music stored on a NAS. The convience of this is now starting to out weigh its deficits in audio quality, although still sounds good, namely having the ability to create a jukebox, playlists and streaming apps such as spotify. I have always been put off my spotify due to it being lossy (premium is 320kb tho) but then heard of Qobuz, which is a streaming services like spotify but streams flac as well. Just wondering if anyone has any experience of using this service? |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 15 May 2014 at 12:26pm
Welcome to our forum, but regarding the above comment, maybe this isn't the place to be? ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: UKMach
Date Posted: 15 May 2014 at 1:12pm
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My apologies, what I was referring to was in regards to comparison of the Arcam CD player to the popcorn hour. They are both at different levels in terms of sound quality but the media streamer having the convience of all my music in one place as opposed to having to get up, find a CD and then listen to music. I guess what I was trying to say is that I find my self evolving towards streamers these days but also still hang onto my CD player for the love of the sound. Incidently Ive actually come to your forums to look at your coax cd cable for my CD player to see if this can improve upon this and to hear what it can sound like ------------- Pioneer AVR SC-LX83, 2x GSP Proprius Mono blocks, Arcam FMJ CD37 Monitor Audio GX100 GXC150 GXFX GXW15 Kimber kable 8TC fronts Audioquest Flx 14/4 rears DIY rockwool acoustic panel treatment |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 15 May 2014 at 1:25pm
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Is High End dying? Well, if you mean highest fidelity audio reproduction then yes, it's certainly on its way there. But Graham Slee is still here in the meantime so get it whilst you can because once it's gone, it is well and truly gone. ------------- We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 15 May 2014 at 2:04pm
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Hi UKMach, trust me to get it out of context... Yes, convenience does have it! True high-end audio is highly inconvenient. Even remote controlled volume control electronics (the ones that drive motor-pots) put interference on the signal, yet some consider products with remotes as being high-end. It's at times like this I regret not having a nice big pension pot... ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 15 May 2014 at 2:37pm
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Graham, by the way things have been going, you won't getting a pension until you're in your 70s... I think the governments are trying to tell older people something... And I better not get started on Criminal's Rights otherwise I won't stop. As for needless gimmicks on audio products such as IR remote controls, why would you want them?? More electromagnetic radiation making the job harder than it needs to be. What's wrong with switches on the product that are set and then left? I like to keep things simple so I can focus on what is actually important: How it sounds?? ------------- We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are. |
Posted By: DogBox
Date Posted: 14 May 2019 at 4:37am
Which is WHY we try to focus on WHAT does a better job of it: Digitally sent through the airwaves; Chopped and topped-and-tailed and put on CD [Re: Winning The Loudness Wars] OR NOT MINDING to have to get up and select what record [or, damn it, CD] and sit back down to "enjoy the recorded bit we can listen to that sounds like the 'live event' ". CAN the one's who can AFFORD the High End gear GOT the ears to appreciate it? I don't think so. What audiophile gets to own a "Stereo" that he/she is really happy with and WAS able to afford it? Is it because of the frequency bandwidth that vinyl recordings give us, the reason why so many are turning back to it and enjoying what they are hearing? Many Younger ones [with GOOD hearing] are liking what they hear... Maybe Hi-End is being 'shunned' by the mass's who are quite happy with the New and Highly Convenient [plus more affordable at the same time] "way" you can GET music at the Present time...? Thankfully, also there will be the one's that frequent a website/forum like this one in the Quest for "that sound" that makes your hair stand on end coming from good equipment/electronics that people who are passionate about what they do, make. And you can talk to the guy who makes it. Worth a heck of a lot, that money can't touch, to get a hold of. But it's right here! While you have the rich and the poor, you'll always have a High End. DogBox
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Posted By: Str8Wire
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2020 at 2:21am
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After just reading through this entire interesting thread I think @hotmog has hit the nail on the head with his response. I also believe the well-to-do will buy the products that look to be expensive and there will manufacturers willing to make those products to fill that desire, not that they are necessarily that much “better” than less costly products. Some of the materials may be more exotic and costly but the limited production volume surely also adds to the cost.
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