Tone Controls Poll (2)
Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: And the rest
Forum Name: Transducers, Speakers, Mics...
Forum Description: Interested in bi-amping, tri-amping, crossovers, speaker design, miking techniques, EQ - the list goes on
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1682
Printed Date: 27 Mar 2026 at 2:12am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Tone Controls Poll (2)
Posted By: Graham Slee
Subject: Tone Controls Poll (2)
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2013 at 8:22pm
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Would you buy a preamp if it had tone controls fitted? Or do you think tone controls are so "toxic" that even if they could be switched out you wouldn't buy? The first poll suggested that 59% don't want tone controls but 41% do. I don't want to let anybody down so hence this next question: If I made a preamp with tone controls (that could be switched out) to suit the 41%, would you still buy even if you don't like tone controls? (This post was edited from the below because it caused a little confusion... It's clear most do not want tone controls but would it put you off buying a preamp that has them?) ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Replies:
Posted By: suede
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2013 at 8:54pm
| Yes I would. In other words, no it wouldn't put me off, if I knew it was properly designed. |
Posted By: hotmog
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2013 at 9:03pm
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I voted "Yes" in the previous poll, and my opinion has not been swayed in the last couple of days. As before, it is subject to the proviso that the design ensures that the presence of tone controls do not degrade the performance. I have no doubts whatsoever that a GSP-designed preamp would fulfil this criterion. ------------- http://www.victorian-breweriana.uk - Hotmog's Victorian Breweriana |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2013 at 9:16pm
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Not if you designed them Graham. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2013 at 9:28pm
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I'm a bit worried here; three people have voted "yes" it would put them off, but this isn't reflected in the comments, am I confused or is it the others? ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2013 at 9:31pm
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I think I voted yes, I'd buy a preamp with (very good) tone controls. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: hotmog
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2013 at 9:43pm
If you look at the thread title, the question being asked is: "Would you buy a pre-amp with tone controls?".  However I agree it's a bit confusing, as the question Graham then goes on to ask in his OP is the opposite, ie "would it put you off buying a preamp that has them?"  ------------- http://www.victorian-breweriana.uk - Hotmog's Victorian Breweriana |
ICL1P wrote:Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2013 at 10:07pm
Thanks. I ignored the title and read Graham's opening question. I'll now cast my vote in confidence. ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: oldagetraveller
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 10:35am
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I voted no, to the poll question, as I did in the other poll. Is this going to end up like one of those referenda that politicians dream up? They keep amending the question until the voters give them the answer they want. ------------- Peter P T- LPT/RB300/G1042, Pink Triangle Tarantella/Nima/Ortofon 2M Black, SL1210II, Naim CD5, NAC112, NAP150, Flatcap2, Proac SC1, GS SoloUL,GS Accession , Senn HD250 & HD540. |
Posted By: Howlindawg
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 10:40am
| For me having the tone controls is a bonus, although I wouldn't outright dismiss a quality amp that didn't have them. Properly defeatable tone controls would seem a good combination of versatility and quality. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 10:41am
Of course not. I only want to know what people want and need to ask questions to find out. It's what all good manufacturers do. I'll not go as far as asking "would you rather buy from a manufacturer who actually cares about you?" As you answered no this time I have to take it on the chin that you wouldn't buy the Aria if it was fitted with tone controls (even with a defeat switch). That's a lost sale, and I care about the individual, so I have to think hard about ways of pleasing everybody. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: TarekMahmoud
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 10:46am
| I have 2 power amplifier: the 1st I bought in the beginning of 2000 and the second I bought couple of years ago and I don't remember once that I had touched the tone controls, but I am willing to give a try to see the difference. |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 10:47am
------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 10:52am
Yes, that's true, and it's OK, but I really love to read every comment, and I'm sure all members do, so I encourage all to comment. It really helps me design the products you want! ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: malcolm.mcintyre
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 10:57am
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Surely the point is how well the controls could be removed from the signal chain. Good quality switching to provide a result comparable with a hard wired tone free path couldn't be objectionable? |
Posted By: wolfman
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 11:10am
| Graham to answer the question would I buy a preamp with tone control the answer would be yes as long as I could turn it off if I chose not to use them. There are times that my wife likes to use the tone controls on the preamp we have now. I myself use them but most of the time they are turned off. Thanks Graham for this chance to voice my opinion |
Posted By: radioguy
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 11:19am
| In my opinion adding tone controls to high end equipment like Grahams is pointless. Given that the recording process has usually gone through a high end studio, mixed by experienced sound engineers then mastered on even higher end gear by even more talented engineers what real benefit is a couple of tone controls going to make apart from muddy the sound. In this case less really is more - KEEP IT PURE! |
Posted By: less
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 11:24am
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I would not be put off purchasing in the least, whether or not tone controls are included. Les ------------- I don't do mediocrity! Les Sutherland |
Posted By: Mingus
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 12:17pm
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I voted no. What I like Graham products is the simplicity and minimalism, there is only what is needed. I think the tone controls are a not necessary thing and could complicate matters. Sorry for my bad english... Mingus
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Posted By: Brianev
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 12:43pm
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Hi Grahame, my only encounter with tone control has been on my Linn pre amp, and on the treble settings on one of my Linn power amps. These I use mainly to combat the room acoustics, which in my case are pretty poor. So, if its far to bright on playback, as mine was, I can cut .5 of a db on each position on my power amp, and to adjust it very finely after this, then the main treble setting can be adjust, by even smaller amounts on the pre amp. For me, this has been a life saver as in cases where an MC cart is a tad on the bright side, as some can be, then the adjustment gets me back to a good sounding reproduction. Also, my speaker cable & interconnects are again on the dry side ( Nordost ) and can add to the brightness of reproduction, but, a small amount of reduction in the tone management helps this immensely. Regards Brian |
Posted By: Jog3004
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 1:03pm
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I voted yes, even though I voted no to the first poll. I've bought equipment before with tone controls as I liked what they did (the amp that is) during audition, but never touched the tone control throughout the ownership of said amp. ------------- James |
Posted By: Wandique
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 1:26pm
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Graham, I'd buy it if such device could be set on a "flat" position. I am quite assured that you will make (as always) an excellent preamp for our listening pleasure. It's very kind of you asking us in such matter. ------------- Rust never sleeps |
Posted By: Piblokto
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 1:37pm
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I voted no to the first question and yes to the second. I don't think that an amp needs tone controls but it wouldn't prevent me from buying it, nor would they be a selling point. It would however raise a doubt in my mind about the ultimate quality of the amp and I would need to be reassured by the overall standard of the rest of the item and the sound (when they are switched out) - their presence could give the impression that the amp is aimed at a non-audiophile market. I might also consider that I was paying extra for things that I didn't need and while I do not know the detail of the cost of prodiction items, they might be perceived as adding quite a bit to the price if presented as expensive high-quality additions. My first amplifier had tone controls. I was 20 years old and played with them excitedly for about a day, realised that they were gimmicks and never used them again. It also had a loudness button that I didn't use after the novelty had worn off after a few weeks. My second amp was extremely minimalist (Myst) but my third had them and I can honestly say that they were never used at all. I didn't want them but the other facilities plus the sound quality meant that I ignored their presence and bought the amp anyway. On my fourth amp now and don't have them. One thing that I have never used is the balance control and wouldn't want to see that. I am not a technician but am willing to believe that, as a comment to the first poll reminded me, there may be a way that tone controls can be an asset. The Quad amps had the tilt controls and they gave the impression that they were more sophisticated than the standard treble and bass dials. Maybe it was just the numbering legend on the front that gave the impression of a more technically involved implementation. If I had a Quad pre-amp I might have played with those for 2 or 3 days before forgetting about them. For me the bottom line is, if the sound needs them then I have bought the wrong amp or speakers and would look at those rather than play with tone controls. |
Posted By: mrarroyo
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 2:05pm
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I think that at the end of the day having tone controls (defeatable) would be an advantage and would expand the appeal of the unit. ------------- Miguel |
Posted By: KC1
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 2:29pm
| No I wouldn't buy any product with tone controls |
Posted By: AlieN
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 3:00pm
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I voted NO to the first question, YES to the second. I never use the tone controls on my current amp but understand why some people want them. I would hope the presence of the tone controls did not increase the cost too much, but if everything else passed muster, then the presence of tone controls (especially defeatable tone controls) wouldn't put me off.
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Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 3:43pm
------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: toots
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 3:45pm
| Well I voted no this time as I think that a pre amp shouldn't have such things. Less fiddling at early stage I say. I do have them on my amp but, oddly, never felt the need to use them. |
Posted By: mike_p
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 3:48pm
| It depends. How would a line stage be configured so that, when switched out of the signal path, there is no signal degradation caused by insertion of the switch in the design? |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 3:48pm
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I voted yes in both polls. Only caveat as to whether I would buy a preamp with tone controls would be if I liked it when I heard it! There seems to be a few who infer they would not entertain even considering a preamp with tone controls. They could be missing out, just because of their misconceptions or adherence to "High end" dogma! |
Posted By: JamesD
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 4:09pm
| I voted yes and agree with BackinBlack. If said tone controls, when set to zero or bypassed, had a negative effect on sound quality in any way then Graham probably wouldn't sleep at night ;-) |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 4:26pm
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I think the only answer is to track the board for it and have two front panels. No tone control version: PCB section not populated. Tone control version: PCB section populated and including defeat switch. Quality of defeat switch: same as used on Revelation and Jazz Club for low level signal switching. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: mike_p
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 4:32pm
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Graham, Are you considering 2 or 3 tone controls (bass, mid, and high)? How much boost or cut would each provide, and how steeply or gently would they roll off?  Thanks, Mike ------------- Bottlehead Stereomour, Blumenstein Orcas, Mac Mini w/Pure Music, Halide DAC HD, Oppo 93, Rel T2, Shunyata Hydra 2, Diamondback PC, Venom 3 PC |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 5:16pm
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Mike, I was considering 2 (bass and treble) because it only requires one amp stage, whereas mid requires another amp stage to do it properly, but I guess it could be done so-so using one amp stage. I'll reproduce the plot from an earlier bass and treble tone control I did back in the mists of time (21 years ago)...  I make it around 4dB per octave at maximum boost/cut and much gentler lower down. This tone control was worked out on a calculator from equations which was good enough then. Today, with computer simulation I can reduce the amount of boost and cut and make it more equal. I can also see from zooming in to the set flat positions that it varied less than 0.01dB end to end, and I can also see that a number of commercial high fidelity tone controls were more like 1dB variation, and that could be why people turned away from tone controls even when set to "flat". ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: richardgoodman
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 5:19pm
| Yes, if defeatable. A well designed tilt control is all that I would want. |
Posted By: RedCloudFuneral
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 5:57pm
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I wouldn't. I built my system around having exactly what I need and nothing more. That's the reason I have a DAC that's USB/redbook resolution only, and the reason I have a Graham Slee phono amp(don't need MC and don't want to pay for it.). I like the idea of having two different versions. If someone wants the feature they can pay a little extra for it, and those of us who don't won't need to worry about paying for it(both SQ and $ wise). |
Posted By: gstan
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 6:17pm
| I think we may be missing something here although I haven't read all the posts. I voted no because nothing comes without cost. Adding high quality tone controls that could be switched out would likely add at least a few hundred $ to the price and I want all of the money spent building the preamp spent on the quality of the 'flat' circuitry. |
Posted By: raeler
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 6:20pm
| I have no problems with a Pre with tone controls especially if there is a bypass input, it gives me more options when listening, i have the choice of the direct input or tweeking the sound to my liking. I find that not all LP's are created/recorded equally and sometimes i do use the GSP revelation Eq switches to alter the sound. Cheers!!! |
Posted By: TarekMahmoud
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 7:25pm
| I voted "Yes" to be willing to buy whatever Graham is producing because I trust his choices. I voted before "no" in the first poll due to the fact that I don't care about the Tone controls. My second decision was not a lack of consistency but it was based on trust. My first GSP was "Amp2 SE" and one year ago I opted for the elevator with Reflex M. |
Posted By: mandoboy
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 10:15pm
| If I found a preamp that had the features that I needed and the sound quality that I was looking for, I would buy it even if it had tone controls. I have a Quad 34 that I really enjoy, it has a type of tone control (tilt), has all the features that I need, but I never use it's tone (tilt) control. |
Posted By: geoffcb
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 11:34pm
I agree! Purists believe that the sound should be "as the producer intended", which is fine, but there can be a lot of EQ used by the time the vinyl is finally cut (even ignoring the necessary RIAA). That being said, I rarely use tone controls unless, for example, a record is extremely bass heavy and I want to save the house! So a nice flat system will reveal "how the record (etc) was marketed", not how the artist or producer intended! So I can't see any problem with switchable tone controls. Baxandall? |
Posted By: Stuart Rothey
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2013 at 11:51pm
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Were I to design a pre-amp, I would not include tone controls and would invest in a simple design using a minimum of top-grade components, based on the philosophy that the less you try to manipulate the signal, the better. As a consumer, if I had problems in tailoring the sound of my loudspeakers, I would invest in an equaliser - say the Behringer. And were I particularly picky, I would then have the Behringer upgraded. Regards, Stuart Rothey |
Posted By: Breakable?
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2013 at 1:44am
| Although I do not feel the need for tone controls, if a piece of equipment sounds right to me which GSP products do, then it would not stop me buying the unit with or without tone controls as its the sound which matters most to me. |
Posted By: musicdude
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2013 at 3:56am
Once again I voted No. I was always looking for a pre-amp without tone controls and found some very nice amps. Unfortunately they are to expensive! When I read that Graham is making the Aria I was very excited and was looking forward to the same "no nonsens minimalist approach" like all the phono amps are. Suddenly after the first poll, I see that the majority want tone controls...  ... because it is built by Graham.  ------------- Andy ProJect Xtension 10 with Clearaudio Charisma V2, GA2 SE, Majestic DAC, CuSat50, Yamaha CD-S1000, Yamaha M-80, Revel F-52. |
Posted By: musicdude
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2013 at 7:23am
+1 ------------- Andy ProJect Xtension 10 with Clearaudio Charisma V2, GA2 SE, Majestic DAC, CuSat50, Yamaha CD-S1000, Yamaha M-80, Revel F-52. |
Posted By: musicdude
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2013 at 7:37am
That's more like it  ------------- Andy ProJect Xtension 10 with Clearaudio Charisma V2, GA2 SE, Majestic DAC, CuSat50, Yamaha CD-S1000, Yamaha M-80, Revel F-52. |
Posted By: tg [RIP]
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2013 at 7:50am
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Perhaps it is pertinent to draw attention to the fact that this poll poses a different question to the first poll The question is "Would you buy a preamp with tone controls?" The intent being, I think, to ascertain if their inclusion (allowing a "one-only" design) would be detrimental to potential sales, in which case it would be preferable to only include them as an option, which would at least require different front panels to be stocked. Graham, please correct me if I am wrong. PS - looks like you found reference to this while I was replying - |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2013 at 7:59am
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The big question here, it seems to me, is do (properly designed) tone controls have any sonic impact when set to zero? I would suggest that people would be very hard pressed to distinguish (blind) between two identical units with or without tone controls. It's just that knowing a unit has tone controls brings to mind previous experience, or word-of-mouth "experience" of the detrimental effects - real or imagined - of less than perfect implementations of tone controls. After all "tone controls" were something your Dad had on his radiogram, so totally uncool! ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Suggs
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2013 at 9:23am
If it's financially practical to do this with/without option, IMO that's definitely the way to go...keeps everyone happy and loses no sales...brilliant 
------------- Derek |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2013 at 9:27am
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tg, you got the gist.
------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2013 at 9:52am
As Mr Lincoln said:“You can please some of the people some of the time all of the people some of the time some of the people all of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time.”That is unless your name is Slee and you have two versions of the Aria available, one with and one without tone controls.It is quite apparent that there are people entrenched at each end of the argument and some who are prepared to "listen and learn". There will always be an issue with price and paying for something you don't think you need (ie tone controls) will be a negative. So the solution of two options means no one has to compromise their requirements. Excellent! |
Posted By: stevieg330
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2013 at 10:06am
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Hi Graham,
My first post while I wait for the Relex M + Elevator coming to me on loan (Thanks Jon).
I do not like Tone controls and all the kit I have bought over the years (with one exception) has not had them fitted. The one amp that did have them also had a defeat switch and there was a noticeable improvement when the tone circuits were switched out.
However I will say that it wouldn't put me off buying something if they were installed, as long as there was a defeat switch.
HTH
Kind Regards
Steve
|
Posted By: OneyedK
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2013 at 11:00am
I still don't need tone controls, so stop trying to selling them to me  I'm in favor of producing two units one with and one without tone controls |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2013 at 11:38am
 ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2013 at 12:58pm
Honestly I'm not trying to sell them to you - I'm just asking questions so I can offer you the things you want. If you don't ask you'll never find out. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: crippson
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2013 at 1:42pm
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Would I buy a pre-amp with tone controls? I probably would. Would I buy a pre-amp without tone controls? Definitely! Just keep it clean  ------------- NAD C515 BEE, NAD C355 BEE, NAD C425, B&W CM1, Sennheiser HD-650, GSP SOLO SRG II (soon). |
Posted By: musicdude
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2013 at 1:55pm
Well said! ------------- Andy ProJect Xtension 10 with Clearaudio Charisma V2, GA2 SE, Majestic DAC, CuSat50, Yamaha CD-S1000, Yamaha M-80, Revel F-52. |
Posted By: yltai
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2013 at 3:17pm
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I would be interested to hear if Graham himself has encountered situations where the tone controls have been useful for him as a consumer of music. I don't think this should change the way that individual users would look at it because clearly people have different needs, but would be interested to understand his perspective as a very informed listener. For me, i like the thought of having the additional tone controls with the defeat switch. More flexibility as long as it doesn't affect price (too much) or performance. Having the cake and eating it mentality.... |
Posted By: Alasdair
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2013 at 9:09pm
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Hmm - I answered the question yes 'as asked' - I would buy a preamp with tone controls. If the preamp was good they certainly wouldn't stop me buying it and in theory they can be very useful. That said, I ran an amplifier which had tone controls (an old Rogers HG88 II) for about 25 years and very rarely used them, as I preferred to sort out sources and speakers so that they sounded neutral. However if you are fitting tone controls I would certainly favour fitting a balance control as well. For domestic reasons it is not always possible to position loudspeakers perfectly symmetrically and adjusting balance to compensate can make a huge difference to sound staging. Best wishes, Alasdair |
Posted By: JamesD
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2013 at 9:40pm
| Not a tone control comment as such but a question for Graham given that the subject has been raised - could the volume controls on the Proprius monoblocks be employed for slight 'balance' adjustment? Or are they best left turned up to 'max' when used with the Aria? |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2013 at 10:04pm
If it helps I actually did this when I had the Proprius amps on loan. It's easier to get right than you'd think! Jon ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2013 at 10:26pm
I can agree with that also having tried the Proprius amps on loan. A slight adjustment of one of the individual volume controls easily brought the stereo image exactly to centre, rather than slighly to left of centre due to the assymetry of my room and the permittted speaker placement. |
Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2013 at 10:40pm
SWMBO? ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2013 at 7:30am
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As if - I know it makes sense to have them there, so I'm told!!!!!! In reality L shaped rooms with doors fireplaces and French windows make correct placement quite difficult. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2013 at 9:58am
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Effectively "lose" the smallest bit of the L shape and treat the remaining room as a rectangle. Place the speakers at the wide end but within the new rectangle, observing the 1 metre rule of thumb to pull out from the corner the speaker nearest the side wall, and position the other speaker the same distance away from the centre line. The speakers may then be only 4 or 5 feet apart but don't worry. Set yourself 1.25 - 1.5 times the distance between the speakers in front of them and toe them out so you can just make out the inner sides from where you're seated. They're probably around 15 to 20 degrees angle with the room sides by now. I found this works quite well. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2013 at 11:21am
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Thanks for the advice Graham, that's not far away from the current speaker positions. Ideally I need to move the right speaker, in the corner of the L, out and forward slightly (~200mm) and the left hand speaker forward a similar amount, leaving them about 2.5m apart. Listening position is about 4m away. I feel a little furniture rearrangement is now overdue, perhaps on the premise that we need to expose the carpet to light to avoid darker patches!! |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2013 at 1:31pm
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What you ideally want is the incidental LH speaker reflection on the RH wall and RH speaker reflection on the LH wall which is going to be approx 2m in front of your seated position, both to be on parallel walls of the remaining part of your L shaped room (the new rectangular area). We don't want one of these reflection points to be in the other part of the L, or hit the outside-corner where the room forms the L. Looking behind you, the points where the direct wave hits your rear wall need to be the same distance from the speakers (ideally) on both channels, and because the speakers are toed you won't be getting a standing wave going back and forth thus avoiding "click-click" echoes (you'd know if you heard them). Also try to avoid the direct wave contacting too close to a corner or at the room corners - ideally greater than 1m away from the corners (thus alleviating the need of bass traps). Try also to ensure the reflection points are on plain wall. OK, I know we're off topic but it's on page 10 and the original topic seems to have gone to sleep ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2013 at 1:45pm
My room is not far off square, but windows, door and fireplace put so many constraints on where the furniture is positioned that I really don't have much option other than to position the speakers either side of the fireplace where centre to centre they are only 1.6 metres apart. Spendor recommends 2 to 3 metres apart and toed in to the listening position. ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: tg [RIP]
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2013 at 2:12pm
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Ifor, I agree, to me the description quoted indicates toed "in" rather than "out", which would expose a greater amount of the inner face of the cabinet. A barely visible inner face will have the axial line from each speaker aimed more or less at each ear with the crossover point just behind the listeners head. Perhaps this is what Graham intended to describe? |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2013 at 2:14pm
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I didn't intend to take things so far off topic, just demonstrate that at times a little adjustment by way of a balance control can be beneficial. Few of us live in a perfect world, perfect rooms or with perfect understanding of acoustics and the need for correct equipment placement from our beloved other halves!! Meanwhile plans are afoot for some subtle reorganisation in the living/listening room. |
Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2013 at 2:21pm
I think Graham is saying to toe them out, because they're too close to together, to spread the soundstage. ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: richardgoodman
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2013 at 2:27pm
| Still toed in, surely, but to a lesser extent than would place the listening position directly on axis. Audio Physic provide similar guidance. |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2013 at 2:59pm
I suggested a bit of living room re-arrangement a while back. We got some new units to gain extra storage, and new, smaller TV bench. Luckily the new units' dimensions gave just the right space for a new pair of floorstanders . .  Do you think the tone control debate is over, now that it seems two versions of the Aria can be made? ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2013 at 4:31pm
Yes tg. I'm grateful for your and others better composed posts (meant sincerely). Thank you. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2013 at 4:33pm
I think so, but we'll leave it live for anybody wishing to add further comments. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2013 at 4:49pm
No, I meant to mean toed out a bit more but still toed in. Sorry for being confusing at times. I find that if the direct wave (beam if you wish) crosses just behind me they don't hit the corners in the rear of the room where they'd have the same effect on bass as having speakers tucked away in corners. And in that position I can just make out the inner side panels of my speakers. By doing it this way a lot of hard panned info appears hard panned but still realistically. Take for example the voice of "Raz" on "Bill Hubbard" on "Amused to Death" (Roger Waters) appearing to be from a radio (or TV) on an imaginary sideboard on your left - but if you concentrate your mind on it, the effect collapses just left of the LH speaker. Then you have two "producers" voices appearing as if they're stood right next to you on the right, saying: "did we do anything after this" and "got a feeling we did". The track is "Watching TV" (same album... in FLAC by the way). Just my viewpoint. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Jitter
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2013 at 7:48pm
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It is a very long time since I bought an amp with Tone controls ------------- ...... and that's my opinion, take or leave it |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2013 at 8:07pm
Same here , but it doesn't stop me considering buying one with tone controls. The important factor is that it sounds good to me. |
Posted By: Bi-wire
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2013 at 9:58am
Me too. I've followed this debate with interest but even after reading various opinions, still favour the minimalist approach. Peter |
Posted By: mitch65
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2013 at 12:17pm
I agree Peter, the minimalist approach is preferable but I won't let it put me off tone controls as long as they are by-passable ------------- Greg Rega Planer 3 Gram Amp 2 Audiolab 8000A Auralic Aries Mini Russell K 50 |
Posted By: Bi-wire
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2013 at 1:24pm
I wouldn't argue with that one bit, mitch, and, in my view, that's certainly the most important prerequisite when including tone controls but there is also an aesthetic argument for the minimalist stance - I know tastes vary so it's somewhat subjective but do you remember those Japanese switch and dial encrusted behemoths from the '70s? Peter ------------- Peter Satisfied user of: Revelation M, PSU1-Enigma, Solo SRGII and lots of CuSat50 |
Posted By: oldagetraveller
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2013 at 3:45pm
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"do you remember those Japanese switch and dial encrusted behemoths from the '70s?" A bit like this?  Also has a tea making switch incorporated! Shame it doesn't have "power" meters though. ------------- Peter P T- LPT/RB300/G1042, Pink Triangle Tarantella/Nima/Ortofon 2M Black, SL1210II, Naim CD5, NAC112, NAP150, Flatcap2, Proac SC1, GS SoloUL,GS Accession , Senn HD250 & HD540. |
Posted By: Bi-wire
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2013 at 4:09pm
Perfect, oldagetraveller, just perfect ------------- Peter Satisfied user of: Revelation M, PSU1-Enigma, Solo SRGII and lots of CuSat50 |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2013 at 4:26pm
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I'm sure many of us have similar pieces of equipment lurking in the loft. I'm tempted to retrieve my Marantz PM94 just to see how it sounds and test it's coffee making abilities! |
Posted By: Bi-wire
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2013 at 5:53pm
I fear that that's true about stuff lurking in lofts. Mine was a great slab of a thing from Rotel that was abandoned when one channel failed, but only recently discarded. ------------- Peter Satisfied user of: Revelation M, PSU1-Enigma, Solo SRGII and lots of CuSat50 |
Posted By: mitch65
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2013 at 6:40pm
I have a 23 year old bruiser  ------------- Greg Rega Planer 3 Gram Amp 2 Audiolab 8000A Auralic Aries Mini Russell K 50 |
Posted By: oldagetraveller
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 10:51am
I rather embarrassingly had an A&R Cambridge A60 integrated amp and matching T21 FM tuner in my first "proper" hi fi system. I say embarrassingly because my vote was for no tone controls and the A60 had them (never used though). Otherwise, both quite minimalist.My daughter has, and still uses, the T21 but the A60 deceased in the late 90's! 
------------- Peter P T- LPT/RB300/G1042, Pink Triangle Tarantella/Nima/Ortofon 2M Black, SL1210II, Naim CD5, NAC112, NAP150, Flatcap2, Proac SC1, GS SoloUL,GS Accession , Senn HD250 & HD540. |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 11:11am
My son uses my old Audiolab 8000A (when he can be bothered to stop listening to music on his iPhone via cr%*py earbuds  ), which another classic amp blessed with subtle tone controls. Implemented correctly I'm firmly convinced they aren't the evil folk think they are.------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Bi-wire
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 11:40am
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Yes, mitch, that Sony amp isn't going to blow away is it! Also,do I detect a hint of confession creeping into this thread? If so, I must also own up to being an 8000A user until a couple of years ago; a very capable amp although I always deselected the tone controls. I also shudder to remember that I went down the 'lifestyle' path a number of years ago with a B&O system - it had the minimalist look but was really a triumph of style over substance in hifi terms. Peter ------------- Peter Satisfied user of: Revelation M, PSU1-Enigma, Solo SRGII and lots of CuSat50 |
Posted By: mitch65
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 1:25pm
Hope not! It's away having a service and being generally pampered at the moment so I have no music ------------- Greg Rega Planer 3 Gram Amp 2 Audiolab 8000A Auralic Aries Mini Russell K 50 |
Posted By: mitch65
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 1:26pm
Very fine amp, I've had 2  ------------- Greg Rega Planer 3 Gram Amp 2 Audiolab 8000A Auralic Aries Mini Russell K 50 |
Posted By: mitch65
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 1:30pm
I said that very thing an another forum a couple of years ago and I was hung, drawn and quartered by the Moderators! In fact, if there was a yardarm I would have been hanging from it ------------- Greg Rega Planer 3 Gram Amp 2 Audiolab 8000A Auralic Aries Mini Russell K 50 |
Posted By: Bi-wire
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 1:55pm
I'll get my coat and leave quietly ... ------------- Peter Satisfied user of: Revelation M, PSU1-Enigma, Solo SRGII and lots of CuSat50 |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 2:08pm
If we're confessing . . . before my SL7, back in the 80s, I had a Beogram 1500 turntable. Worked fine! (But the Technics was better ) ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: mitch65
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 4:47pm
That's one big confession! ------------- Greg Rega Planer 3 Gram Amp 2 Audiolab 8000A Auralic Aries Mini Russell K 50 |
Posted By: paulgh
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 6:32pm
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The pre-amp on my main system has defeatable tone controls. So, I guess the answer is yes, I would still buy one if it had tone controls that could be correctly bypassed. However, in more than 20 years listening to hifi gear, I have never used tone controls and am not about to start. If I was buying another pre-amp, I would prefer that I did not have to pay for controls that I will never use, and then pay extra for another switch to allow me to bypass the controls I will never use. But if, for other reasons, it is the right one for me, then I guess I would still buy it.
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Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 6:58pm
 ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: JamesD
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 7:09pm
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I might use tone controls for achieving a more accurate frequency response in my living room if it was a cheaper and easier solution than drastically changing the decor or furnishings :-) Provided that (seriously): 1. They didn't degrade the sound in any way, 2. Could be defeated if found to be unnecessary (for those of us who are paranoid that point 1 wasn't being met...) and 3. Were subtle in their effect. When I was young a room in my uncle's house used to kill the already limited amount of bass coming from my 80's tape-to-tape stereo and attentuated the treble. A room in the house where I live now sometimes creates boomy bass. Just because tone controls are set to '0' doesn't mean you're hearing what they heard at the studio. (For that matter do all mixing/recording engineers have calibrated hearing I wonder? Do we all hear the same? More to think about!?!...). I admit that sometimes I think that tone controls are 'cheating' somehow or giving us sound that we don't think is accurate but I would rather have them that not. I can appreciate too that some don't want to have to pay extra for controls they aren't going to use. I guess it depends on how much extra they'll cost in relation to the enclosure, power supply, source selector, volume control, critical circuits etc. etc. I accept that I've paid for heavy electric window winder motors in the back doors of my Golf that I'll never use but the cost of them is a drop in the ocean compared to the cost of the car, and some families do use them :-) |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 7:23pm
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I think you've hit the nail on the head here, James! What IS accurate? In terms of acoustic music we think we know how live music should sound - but how the end recording matches how the music sounded in the recording venue we can only guess at. And for studio-produced electronic based music accuracy is only in the ear of the producer. All hifi kit can hope to do is provide a sound that pleases and provides enjoyment. If the listener equates that with being accurate to the source, then that's good. But with different ears and different brains interpreting sound made by different kit in different rooms how any form of consensus can be reached is remarkable. ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: mitch65
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2013 at 7:26pm
Could be worse  ------------- Greg Rega Planer 3 Gram Amp 2 Audiolab 8000A Auralic Aries Mini Russell K 50 |