Let's discuss power source!
Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: And the rest
Forum Name: Power Sources
Forum Description: Where the power comes from has always been a hot topic - even more so now with new World legislation
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1407
Printed Date: 27 Mar 2026 at 3:31am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Let's discuss power source!
Posted By: GoSUV
Subject: Let's discuss power source!
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2012 at 7:53am
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For any audio enthusiast, if you dig deep enough into the world of hifi audio, be it headphone systems or speaker-based systems, vinyl or CD or DAC/CAS as source, you simply can't get away from the power source, and the "cleanliness" of it. The theory behind it is very simple, as the power source is the foundation of everything that runs on electricity. However, depending on who you listen to, there are no shortage of people who sell snake oil in this business, and myths and hype are rampant. I don't claim to be an electrical expert, nor do I work in the audio industry. However I do have an engineering degree so I know the basic difference between AC and DC power, resistance and capacitance and inductance, frequency response and filters etc. If I'm not mistaken, most of the components in our audio system that runs on power (e.g. except passive speakers and headphones) needs DC to operate. When you plug your mains AC power to these boxes, it gets converted by transformers and rectifiers to DC. The conversion can take place inside the main chassis, or you can have external switched mode power supplies or the more substantial units like the PSU1. Whichever way you do it, you need to convert the AC power from the mains socket on the wall to DC power before the system can do anything with it. The quality of the AC-DC conversion with the different methods of course varies due to design and budget constrains. Although I don't own the PSU1 (yet), I'm sure it is a huge improvement over the "green" switched mode power supply. All is good. But now comes my question. There are tons of so called "AC line conditioners", "audiophile AC power cables", "audiophile sockets" and all the way up to "AC power regenerators", like a mini power plant right in your home, that costs upwards of tens of thousands of dollars. How much do these things improve the sound really, and for the PSU1 specifically, how much of an improvement would you get, if you substitute the regular AC power cord with one of these "audiophile" grade ones? My thinking goes beyond "audiophile" power cords and all those high end power solutions. I have been trying to build a CAS system using a laptop computer, that will allow me to run on batteries while listening to music. I have also been evaluating DACs that either use a high-quality outboard power supply or employs batteries outright so that I can completely detach from the power grid. My theory is, you cannot get more pure and clean DC power than batteries. I currently have the Voyager portable amp, but have been looking at the Solo UL with the PSU1. My overall plan is to get my entire audio chain as clean as possible and free from AC power artifacts to maximize their performance. I just have my doubts about the so called audiophile AC power solutions and whether they are worth the high prices they command. Perhaps I can hope the man can comment himself if a high quality AC power cord connected to the PSU1 will further improve its performance. |
Replies:
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2012 at 8:50am
This is something I've been wondering too! It's hard to distinguish the "facts" from the snake-oil BS put out by a lot of vendors. How about audiophile fuses for your mains plugs? Aside from power leads there's also audiophile USB cables and audiophile CAT5 cables - another can of worms! You can't help but think that a fool and his money are soon parted; an audiophool even more so  (- he writes, thinking "how far down the road to audiophoolery have I gone already?" Lol!)------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
GoSUV wrote:Posted By: GoSUV
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2012 at 10:37am
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As an aside, at first I did not believe USB cables make any difference at all and had just used whatever I could find around my computer desk. I had always just stole the cable from my portable USB harddrive and used it for my DAC. But one day I was also using the harddrive so I need a different one for the DAC, so I just grabbed another cable from a cheap USB hub and connected it to the DAC. Now I noticed the sound was different. Vastly different. I even thought there was something wrong with my system. The highs are harsh, lows are gone and the dynamics are just missing. I couldn't believe it was the USB cable, but that was the only thing changed. So I waited for the USB harddrive to free up, so that I could rob its cable again and use it for the DAC. Voila. Everything is back to the way it was. Both cables were no more than 1 meter long, but the harddrive cable is of course built much better and thicker, with the cheap USB hub cable thinner and more flimsy, same as the ones you would find in a dollar store. Eventually I bought a $69 USB cable from an audio brand and was happy. To make a long story short, this startling discovery made me wonder whether the wild claims about different AC power cables were also true. Now I'm not saying those $1,000 USB cables were worth your money. I also believe in the rules of diminishing returns. I mean, if I invested in say, a $100 AC power cord that could make my system sound more noise-free, improve dynamics, and make the frequency extend higher and lower, I would jump at such a product. But as you say, the world is full of vendors who are always ready to make you part your money. I wish someone with the proper background in the science of mains power could offer something concrete. |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2012 at 11:31am
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The only USB cable I have in my audio system is the one taking the output from the ADC to the computer for doing vinyl rips. I decided to hedge my bets, quality/SQ wise and bought a cheap one from an audio brand. But to be honest I couldn't be bothered to do any comparisons because my rips sound just like the LP (or as close as reasonably possible given the different components in the playback chain). Sometimes its good to stop chasing the final angel on the pinhead and just enjoy the music. But power products may well be different. I know its reported that the orientation of the figure-8 mains lead into PSU1 can produce different sonics - but I couldn't reliably determine this on my kit . . . ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Frostg
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2012 at 12:36pm
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I like this thread, and would be interested in hearing from the electronics experts here! We know Graham's CuSat connector cables make a difference between source units, so expect the material USB cables are made of must make a difference somewhere. But the power cables do mystify me, if as you say we were feeding AC to the motors then I could understand that maybe there would be an influence, but with DC can there be? I like you await to be enlightened, otherwise I feel I am a sceptic, a doubting Thomas! |
Posted By: Wandique
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 2:45am
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Does anyone tried an "enhanced" mains cable with the PSU1 ? I tried one with my preamp an the results were very good indeed so I think it could be good a try with the PSU1 ... ------------- Rust never sleeps |
Posted By: mrarroyo
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 11:09am
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I have and had good results. Will post a picture later. ------------- Miguel |
Posted By: Wandique
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 12:36pm
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Miguel, What changes happened ? ------------- Rust never sleeps |
Posted By: suede
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 1:10pm
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Surely there couldn't be much improvement?? Given the emphasis on impeccable quality with GSP products it doesn't make much sense that such a cheap component as a power handling cable should be an achilles heel. Maybe the previous cable was somehow defective? On the other hand as I haven't tried any of this for myself I can only make guesses and assumptions. ------------- Proprius, Reflex M, Solo UL, Bitzie, CuSats & Spatia --------------------------------- Johan |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 9:00pm
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Kelvin can answer all this, but unfortunately, by now, I think he's dead. However, his observations are still with us. Believe it or not, Kelvin currents, expanded upon by Kirchoff, started out very much like Newton's laws did after the apple hit him on the head. In the case of Kelvin, he was making his living in telling folk where the silt was in canals so they knew where to dredge. We now know that the silt builds up on the side from where the wind predominantly blows. What has all that to do with audio you may ask? Well, substitute current direction for wind direction (a westerly blows to the east...) and find the source of the current, and that's where it flows back to - just like the currents in the water which deposited the silt right back to the side where it started. Made Kelvin a few bucks! Today, we see terms like "Kelvin capacitor" when reading about amp decoupling - or should I say, we read about such things in the real world, which unfortunately most of you guys don't usually see because of all the hi-fi hype - but then again you have me...  So, if the power starts out at the power station... yup! It ends up back there on the other phase! So, I guess you could take that as an add for batteries? Nope! Unfortunately batteries often let the side down because of a thing called internal resistance. But, if you use a truck battery, that can be minimised. Now, because all this stuff is part of the basic knowledge required to build incredibly good sounding gear, then I do actually take it into consideration. In fact, it's a major consideration. But, at some point I have to say "No, that's it! Nobody will pay me what it takes to go that far". It is a case of diminishing returns - the cost curve increases considerably whilst the perceivable improvements become fewer. I don't want to put the dampers on this discussion - in fact, I want to encourage it. But let's not confuse differences with improvements. Often there can be a big difference, but it may not be an actual improvement when heard by others. This place is a credible place - let's keep it that way for our visitors. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: tg [RIP]
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 5:31am
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I have noticed improvement from using a better quality (not highly expensive) power cord on my power amplifier - the cable uses heavier wire and good quality plugs either end and replaced a standard "kettle lead" type. Cost less than $60. My feeling being that better quality contacts and greater current capacity improved the ability to rapidly respond to increased current draw. I will probably try similar with other components at some time. I have also noticed improvement by removing any SMPS plugs from boards directly connected to other components and giving them their own separate supply board and line to reduce any mains pollution they may contribute. The rest of my gear runs from a power conditioner box. I have directly compared my pre SRG Solo using the SMPS, a DIY linear supply and the PSU1. The DIY linear was not very sophisticated but gave a marked improvement over the SMPS. Direct comparison showed the PSU1 to better the DIY job. WRT battery supplies, it might be worth reading the articles on regulator noise and design at http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/regulators_noise1_e.html - http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/regulators_noise1_e.html Of particular interest are the graphs of comparative noise levels of some battery supplies. |
Posted By: mrarroyo
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 10:47am
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Due to the ferrites on both ends I felt the music presentation was clearer and the background was blacker. Also the cable is shielded and since I have a very crowded cabinet with a lot of gear I believe it helped in the overall sound presentation. Lastly I purchased the power cord on sale fro under $90 USD so I do not have a lot of money sunk into it. YMMV. ------------- Miguel |
Posted By: Wandique
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 1:02pm
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I agree Miguel, I think it´s all about radio frequencies ... I know how good is the PSU1, this is not the point, but I understand that a better cable with ferrite stoppers make it sound a little better since I don´t have rf anymore ! Graham, you are quite right saying that "different" is not (necessarely) better. ------------- Rust never sleeps |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 9:20pm
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I have replaced almost of my stock mains cables and heard a difference in most cases. the cables vary from £50/60 to £150. Two big impacts: the CD player (clearer) and subwoofer (faster and punchier on kick drums). It is quite subjective and I also agree with Graham's comment. Try a cable swap and see what you think. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Wandique
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2012 at 4:58pm
Besides the cable, the connector is very important too  ------------- Rust never sleeps |
Posted By: dillon
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 1:14pm
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I read everywhere that switched mode wall warts are rubbish...putting noise and dirt on to the mains unlike a linear psu. Simple question: is that so? My Bro has a wall wart 12v AC only unit powering his DAC and wants to know if he needs/can replace it with summat better as it will be part of the dac to Novo chain when he gets my Novo? ------------- Nottingham Analogue/Origin Live/ PS Audio/ Burson Audio/GSP/ John Cadman |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 2:55pm
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I can only speak for our products... Switched mode is here to stay - its origins are political - a case of engineering providing a less than perfect solution for a political crisis which most people don't know exists ("security of supply" {of gas and oil}) It also serves another political process, that of globalisation - the great exchange racket (or bubble) which means the West is bailed out for doing little work by China getting the orders. Such politics being championed by the EU have basically caused the EU to fall on its own sword... It means we, and the rest of the Western manufacturers cannot compete by making our own switched mode power supplies, and the politicians knew that all along, so we're forced to buy them from China. We'd much prefer our customers to use our PSU1 but for many on a budget that isn't possible. What we do is use a 'card input filter' designed to vastly attenuate the 'wild' harmonics of switched mode power. Basically switched mode is DC with every conceivable distortion added to it. To make them small enough to be plug top mounted they cannot use better techniques like computer power supplies - they cannot do the really high frequencies which requires considerable shielding and other techniques, and cannot therefore comply with another political intrusion called EMC. Therefore they run at something just over 20kHz and the harmonics would ruin the sound if not for our 'card input filter'. How others cope I can only guess. Graham PS: suggestions that we should break the law will not be taken kindly  ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: dillon
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 3:07pm
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Thanks Graham. He would be happy to pay for the GSP AUDIO PSU1 or grab your green wall wart. But he has a 9v 0.5A AC only wally...yours are 24v? So can't buy these right? ------------- Nottingham Analogue/Origin Live/ PS Audio/ Burson Audio/GSP/ John Cadman |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 5:33pm
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You may want to look at something http://www.paulhynesdesign.com/page7.html - like this . . . I have a Paul Hynes linear power supply for a Squeezebox Touch which works very well. Excellent build quality, made to order with the spec you request. Not cheap, but then good things rarely are. Ignore the out of date web page too and contact Paul for up-to-date prices etc. if this appeals. ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: dillon
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 9:07pm
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Thank you so much mate! ------------- Nottingham Analogue/Origin Live/ PS Audio/ Burson Audio/GSP/ John Cadman |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2013 at 5:45am
AC? You're sure it's AC? Not DC? If it is AC then stick with the wall-wart because its just a transformer. Bob, £180 for a power supply helps me feel more comfortable with my own pricing for the PSU1. The original safety approval (more like being on trial for six months) allowed me to make in different voltages, but then some jobsworth "Spanish inquisition" inspector from Canadian Standards stopped me. I found the 1 GHz gain bandwidth product of the error amp quite amusing - they must be big to accommodate the microwave strip technology required... all that for stable DC, wow  ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: dillon
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2013 at 8:07am
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Graham It's definitely an "AC adaptor" on the wall wart. Though now thinking about it im just calling it a SMPS but I also picked up this post elsewhere: "One observation regarding power supply. I believe the unit's provided power supply is a sort of step down transformer that brings down AC to 9 volts (according to Furutech's specs for the GT40)...it is not an adapter (converter) that changes AC into DC. I am not sure if that AC-to-AC transformer provided with the GT40 is of a switching unregulated nature, or if there is such a thing at all; likewise I am not sure if there is such a thing as an AC-to-AC "linear- regulated-analog" power supply (at least, I have not be able to find either one being sold in the US). Most certainly one can find a better made AC-to-AC (better isolation) step down transformer with a higher amp rating but am not sure what would it contribute to sound improvement. I think more important is the circuit performing the actual conversion of the 9 volts AC to needed DC voltages that takes place inside the GT40--which appears to be performing quite up to par." So guys, im no electrican and if its AC only plug top there wont be much of an improvement sound wise? I just dont want him to lose out because of a crappy wall wart in his FLAC ---> Furutech ADL GT40 DAC ---> Novo chain. Graham I think your PSU1 is a bargain given £180 -£250 is the lower pricing range for an after market power supply unit like the ones above and elsewhere ! Bob At those prices, Bob, they had better be good - and Paul Hynes' specifications sound good on paper! Dil Edit: Apologies I really dont wanna stray too far from the OP with a personal issue - so how about looking at this as a wider discussion of the merits of AC only wally's... ------------- Nottingham Analogue/Origin Live/ PS Audio/ Burson Audio/GSP/ John Cadman |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2013 at 9:10am
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Looking back at my emails, I see Paul Hynes' PS was an SR3-05 with his DC3C high performance OFC DC lead and cost £270. This might be a good time to mention to any SB Touch owners that I'm selling all my Squeezebox players and moving on and that the PH power supply is up for sale - no reasonable offer refused . . And Graham - your PSU1 price, like every other piece of GSP kit, is exceptional value. ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Peter.H
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2014 at 12:35pm
Haven't been here for a while, but yesterday I chanced on something which brought me back! Currently, my only decent headphones (Q701s) are being used with a Meridian Explorer on my office computer system. Consequently, the Novo on my main system is getting very little use - although, in accordance with Graham's recommendation, I've always left it powered up, using the original WallWart. Yesterday, I decided to unplug it for a while (I'll run it up again for at least 12 hours if I need to use it in the near future). Imagine my ASTONISHMENT when I turned on my main system and the sound through the speakers had clearly IMPROVED. Totally unlooked-for, but I A/B tested and can confirm it seems "real". Shock, horror - the WallWart goes into a Russ Andrews double power socket, RIGHT NEXT to a RA Silencer (which I long ago established makes a significant sonic difference to my set-up). So, anyone else noticed this? Looks like I may be in the market for a PSU1... ------------- Peter Arcam A38,T32 | Audiolab 8200CD | Cambridge azur 650BD | KEF Q55.2 | DAK Novo | Meridian Explorer | AKG Q701 | Connectors - van den Hul, QED, Clearer Audio | Hi-Fi Racks Podium | RA accessories |
Posted By: suede
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2014 at 1:38pm
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Yes, I always make sure to disconnect any wall-warts before listening to music. The exception being of course the wall wart transformer of my TT. Also beware of modern power conserving light bulbs. They too throw lots of noise into the mains. Sadly the EU has now banned the production or import of the old type of bulbs so they are exceedingly hard to find. I've stockpiled a dozen or two of them myself but as you ultimately share the mains with neighbouring households there's only so much one can do. I've had to accept that my system only performs its best in the daytime or late at night, seemingly when the lights (and potentially any noisy electronic equipment) go out in the building or neighbourhood. Slightly OT, another thing I've noticed is that often during winter, when there's more stress put on the grid I suppose, the voltage of the mains in my flat seem to rise high above the normal. For example my electric stove top is suddenly much more efficient and also the light bulbs at least seem to shine brighter and this always coincides with an especially significant degradation in sound quality. I haven't actually measured the voltage or anything during these periods, it's just a suspicion I have, but perhaps someone here can relate to this phenomenon? And if this is so, how much of a deviation from the normal 220v can normal consumer electronics such as a stereo system handle? Could this be cause for concern? ------------- Proprius, Reflex M, Solo UL, Bitzie, CuSats & Spatia --------------------------------- Johan |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2014 at 2:09pm
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Perhaps I should push the PSU1 more often? I do the wallwart versions to help customers afford our products - change to a PSU1 and you'll not only witness better sound from our product, but your entire system.... Erm, somebody will accuse me of BS if I advertised it like that. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: suede
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2014 at 2:49pm
Seems an occupational hazard either way you put things forth. The world of HiFi is almost as opinionated and touchy as that of religion it appears. ------------- Proprius, Reflex M, Solo UL, Bitzie, CuSats & Spatia --------------------------------- Johan |
Posted By: RichW
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2014 at 3:06pm
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Indeed, as a quick browse on certain other internet sites illustrates.
The improvements the PSU1 makes over the wallwart are noticeable immediately.
------------- Majestic/Enigma, Accession MM & MC. |
Posted By: tg [RIP]
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2014 at 4:01pm
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refer my post on p2 of this thread ........... "I have also noticed improvement by removing any SMPS plugs from boards directly connected to other components and giving them their own separate supply board and line to reduce any mains pollution they may contribute. The rest of my gear runs from a power conditioner box." The PSU1 benefits not only the gear it powers. IME ------------- Tony G |
Posted By: Peter.H
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2014 at 4:32pm
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Graham, Looks like your proposed advertisement would not be BS for my system! As they say over the pond - YMMV. Tony, Sorry, I missed your comment on page 2. Not really surprised - only in that the Silencer, which normally does this job well, seems to have underperformed this time. I can't really put in a complete mains spur with isolating transformer for my hi-fi (and remain married!) but I did replace the house distribution board (!) and the relevant sockets and put in various leads and things. Been tweaking for decades and it's still very hard to identify the snake-oil from the good stuff... So, PSU1>Wishlist.
------------- Peter Arcam A38,T32 | Audiolab 8200CD | Cambridge azur 650BD | KEF Q55.2 | DAK Novo | Meridian Explorer | AKG Q701 | Connectors - van den Hul, QED, Clearer Audio | Hi-Fi Racks Podium | RA accessories |