Solo UL impressions
Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: Headphone Audio
Forum Name: Graham Slee Headphone Amps
Forum Description: Questions, answers and product information zone for Graham Slee Headphone Amplifiers
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1324
Printed Date: 19 Apr 2024 at 11:40am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Solo UL impressions
Posted By: DrHouse
Subject: Solo UL impressions
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2012 at 6:40pm
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Just some thoughts on my time with the Solo UL:
Equipment PC Foobar2000 FLAC>>>Asynchronous USB MF M1DAC>>> Solo UL>>>>HD650/D2000
Test Songs:
Tool - Parabol, Lateralus, Schism Rush - YYZ, Tom Sawyer 24/96 Pantera - Walk, A New Level James Blake - The Wilhelm Scream, Limit To Your Love, Measurements Jose Gonzalez - Broken Arrows, All You Deliver Machine Head - Be Still And Know, Locust Massive Attack - Group Four, Dissolved Girl Portishead - Mysterons, Glory Box Alice In Chains - Rotten Apple
I’ve always hated sibilant headphones (hence the HD 650) and the nicest thing about this amp to my ears is the treble presentation. Ive always thought there was a very fine line between too much and too little treble, and I think this is where that 'valve like' sound is comes in. What the Solo UL does is carefully walk the tightrope in between too much and too little treble. On the metal tracks listed such as Lateralus, I can happily crank up with the introduction of loud distorted guitars with no fatigue whatsoever, and a solid midrange gave the guitars authority. Very often I found myself waiting for the inevitable ear grating treble of a guitar, but the Solo keeps this under control and the result is very pleasing. On the two Pantera tracks, which have a tendency to become a bit toppy as things pick up, Ive never heard them sounding any better. This allowed more much needed focus on the track's midrange of guitars. On Machine Head's Be Still And Know, the opening harmony between two guitars shows a very sweet treble with no notable grain. For those who are after edgier more prominent treble, maybe the SRGII would suit better, but to take a little bit of the edge off toppy recordings this is a great solid state solution. Jose Gonzalez's acoustic tracks were conveyed as very mellow and with a close soundstage, exactly as they should be. He comes in with a few strong chords on 'Broken Arrows', and this has great dynamic. The presentation of the music I found to be natural and musical. Good Bass, too. All of the Trip Hop had cleanly driven bass lines with little to no encroachment onto the mids. The ambient effects where still left to nicely float around, and I didn't feel that the voicing had necessarily added quantity to the bass, but it does go very deep and is tight. That being said, there was definitely a slight increase in low end presence with other tracks. Massive Attack's incredibly thick and harder to control bass lines were nicely held in place, and on Group Four, vocals were kept airy, the way they should be. With a good amp like this, it's not necessarily that it adds or improves on anything, it simply feels like it’s been brought back to ‘normal’, to what it should have been from the start. Exactly what a good amp from a good source should do. On James Blake's Wilhelm Scream, his closely mic'd vocals are kept very musically intimate. On ‘Limit To Your Love’ with a wealth of tones and sounds around the mix, single details remained well defined, including the sweltering sub-bass line. The ‘muddy’ bass often labelled to the HD 650 was non-existent here. The Rush album listed above has been my first foray into 24/96 audio, and instruments had noticeably better definition than the redbook copy. Make sure that you have a clean sounding DAC alongside this. When using an old denon CD player, the bass loosened and clouded a little bit over the midrange. When on lower volumes, treble presence disappears a little quicker than expected, but this is only a note for those who prefer to listen at much lower levels. Lastly, I hope that in the future Graham offers more connections around the amplifier, such as balanced cable and input support which appears to be becoming more popular. Also maybe build the external PSU1 into the unit itself? I for one wouldn’t mind a larger unit size considering the home use only.
Overall I recommend this for those who want a LITTLE edge taken off the top, and a more musical presentation with authoritative low end and mids. Don’t be misled to think that the bass is blown out of proportion, which was a pleasant surprise on first listens. The rest lies in the headphones you use, and that’s exactly how it should be. Any further ‘upgrades’ to an amp like this (if any) would probably be for greatly diminishing returns. All in all you really can’t go wrong with this. Definitely worth a try.
N.B. Just for anyone using an Audiolab M-DAC, the difference between that built in amp and this IS significant. Just thought I’d put that.
EDIT: after going back to some other equipment the Solo UL definitely adds significant kick to the low end. |
Replies:
Posted By: alanbass1
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2012 at 7:36pm
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I have had my SOLO UL burning in for 11 days now and reading this review (listening to Mozart's Requiem through my Naim Uniserve/Uniti - SOLO UL - Grado RS1 set up) I can only conclude that this is a very special musical combination indeed. Onto Masive Attack's Mezzanine now.....back to the music |
Posted By: DrHouse
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2012 at 8:50pm
Mezzanine off the Solo UL= 
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Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2012 at 11:02pm
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Thanks DoctorH for a very good review and an impressive selection of test tracks. I think you're right about the low frequencies, it has got more body than any of my built-in amps. I was really impressed by the weight and punch of the Solo Ultralinear, even at higher volumes while the midrange remained very clear and natural. It is extraordinary. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Jog3004
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2012 at 10:29am
Hi, I've just got my solo UL but just as I had to go away for work speaking at several conferences. I had about 30 minutes listening before I went & initial impression was good, immediately I noticed improved separation & the bass was tighter, especially with the phiaton ps500 that can be rather exuberate at the least with bass, but more noticeably on my Grados the bass appeared to be tighter but also more evident. I've got a long way yet to burning the solo in, & on the first listen, the amp had not been turned on,which I found that the sound improved when I left my novo on to warm up, & from that point I left it turned on permanently ( hope there is no Eco warriors listening!). I must confess though, the solo UL was impressive, but, but so was the novo, the latter being too good & possibly resulting in many not bothering to upgrade, though I do think they're missing out on a blistering amp a la solo UL.  ------------- James |
Posted By: alanbass1
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2012 at 10:55am
| The Solo UL is my first dedicated headphone amp and I never knew what I was missing out on all these years.... |
Posted By: DrHouse
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2012 at 12:52pm
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Thinking back, if the Solo UL had a slightly more expansive soundstage, this would be a 'be all end all' amp... all in the pursuit of perfection i guess Is Graham currently working on any new products/improvements?
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Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2012 at 1:09pm
Always wearing myself out on such things... So why is it those who don't put in anywhere near the same effort have such great fortunes and such fun lifestyles on the back of all those millions of deceived customers. Yes, I realise, I just answered my own question. I may have to start doing things their way.... ? ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
DrHouse wrote:Posted By: alanbass1
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2012 at 1:34pm
....but would you really want that??????
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Posted By: DrHouse
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2012 at 2:30pm
In response to that, I wonder what would happen if you stuck one of these on the Voyager... If the image doesn't come up, its basically that 'made for iphone' badge |
Posted By: tg [RIP]
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2012 at 2:54pm
Probably get a letter from Apples lawyers demanding their cut 
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Posted By: DrHouse
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2012 at 2:59pm
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Or instead of saying 'valve-like', you could say 'subwoofer-like'.
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Posted By: DrHouse
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2012 at 6:12pm
| In a nutshell, success in todays world of audio is determined by effective marketing. Beats is in every apple store, and Bose is in every airport. Now that there's a growing portable headphone amp market, there's great potential for the Voyager to compete with the iBasso offerings etc. The main thing is getting the Graham Slee name to the wider population. |
Posted By: alanbass1
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2012 at 6:51pm
Or should that be 'Getting the Graham Slee name to the wiser population'....
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Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2012 at 6:53pm
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I was having a brief dig at many of "our" trade and shop outlets who were oh so enthusiastic once. Never mind. The less they promote our incredible hard work the more you buy direct from our online shop, making last year a bumper direct sales year. Poaching sales definitely not! If we were to rely on the trade alone we'd be one of the great has beens like Woolworth, MFI, ... , etc. And yes, I am working on improvements all the time - the trade don't like it at all, but seeing they're doing very little in our support (apart from a handful and they/you know who they are) we may as well ride roughshod as they say... One particular improvement on the Solo Ultra Linear is reducing the hiss: using extremely sensitive phones designed especially for iWotsits -- put it this way, such phones weren't around before the iWotsit -- some people experience a very gentle hissing sound behind the music. As I have repeatedly said over and over, we are customer led (seeing customers buy what we sell it seems reasonable to be like that ...), and so I will always put in the effort for the customers, even if I have to redesign an entire product's electronics, which I have done with the Solo Ultra-Linear on test here. I will add, the Ultra-Linear module itself is the only item untouched because I could not improve on it according to my hearing and a number of measurement tests. You will note from what I just said - a total redesign... It's not something the average DIY'er could easily fit in an evening. So what does it achieve? I wanted to get the noise down a factor of 10 (which is 20dB) but that didn't bode well for the music on all headphones because of other factors which would take me an age to discuss here. The noise level is actually down by a factor of 5 (which is 14dB making it now -92dB). The law of diminishing returns has obviously come into play here. As for it's valve like qualities, it does have some left. It uses something in the region of 14dB global negative feedback (which the old Ultra-Linear Williamson 15W valve amp did). It still has the increased open-loop frequency response. It has a little less input stage linearity but compared to other products out there it certainly is the equal or in most cases better. It is more "class A" and at the last measurement I found it doing 15mA idling current per channel. With a 32 Ohm headphone that is 0.48 volts, and if we square that number and divide it by the headphone impedance (0.2304/32) we get 7.2mW. If we then take such a headphone to be any of the latest Grado's which do 98dB SPL for 1mW, then by mathematical manipulation we find that it can do 106.57dB SPL (sound pressure level) in class A. In ear phones are so sensitive that they'll be in class A full time - I just hope that -92dB hiss will be quiet enough for you in-ear guys. And for higher impedances it looks like you'll be in permanent "class A heaven". So why is it you existing UL owners don't have this? I imagine some of you are going to be quite angry with me? I guess being customer led is a bit of a double edged sword? Any questions? ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: alanbass1
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2012 at 7:07pm
| My question is that I have just purchased my Solo UL and, through my Grado RS1's, I do not hear/notice any hiss (at least at the volumes I listen with). How would the sound differ between the two, or is it going to be so negligeable that is it just a case of whether you get hiss which becomes obtrusive then consider the revised model? |
Posted By: mrarroyo
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2012 at 8:03pm
Interesting observation, I find the UL to be one of the widest (but not artificial) soundstage amps I have listened for under $1,000 USD. Very convincing and enjoyable amp. ------------- Miguel |
Posted By: jamescodway
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2012 at 8:40pm
My local audio shop had proudly displayed the UL under their glass desktop yesterday... They know I have one but I reckon they could have tried to sell me another... 
Congratulations Graham on your new design. 1. Will there before too long be a DIY option for the the UL+ with extra power supply and volume screw so we can mix and match and spread the different flavours of 'love' around the house yet further? 2. I'd be interested to hear what other benefits the UL+ offers apart from -92db hiss, especially for any of my 'on the way out' cans listed elsewhere this evening. Best James ------------- Voyager - HD25 |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2012 at 8:47pm
Let me answer in a roundabout way. Miguel wrote " I find the UL to be one of the widest (but not artificial) soundstage amps I have listened for under $1,000 USD." The Solo Ultra-Linear is around $1,000 USD shipping and customs duties factored in. Do we see a problem here? There are thousands of headphone amps on the market - the market is so diluted for each manufacturer that people like me stopped doing it for the money years ago - you simply make nothing out of this job anymore unless you're Chinese or Vietnamese or from any one of many similar countries where labour is so cheap. We simply do it to make a living (just). Any design more than a year old and the world loses interest - no matter how good it is - that's human nature, always on a hiding to nothing. Therefore, if you wish to retain a living out of what you do, you have to better the best. If you don't better the best and SHOUT about it you lose - you're out. So that's what we have to do, and then run the gauntlet of customers who just bought. But tell me, which other way do we do it? We've tried to soften the blow by offering upgrades, but even then we are criticised. The noise has come down 14dB is all I'm saying right now. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: jamescodway
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2012 at 9:11pm
Message understood. Please let us know when the shouting (or SHOUTING) kicks off . Maybe you might find a few other voices joining in the chorus...Best James ------------- Voyager - HD25 |
Posted By: alanbass1
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2012 at 9:17pm
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Graham,
I'm not complaining at all, far from it. When I bought my Grado RS1's six months later they released the RS1i. The thing is that I bought the RS1's because I actually liked the lively up front sound and couldn't care less that there is a 'newer' model. About three years ago a friend of mine purchased a pair of RS1i's and having A/B'd these I genuinely prefer the older model for it's slightly punchier midband, but it is subtle.
What I know is that I really like the sound of the Solo UL and was wondering whether by reducing the noise level it changes the sound in any other way, especially as the smooth presentation of the Solo UL really compliments the RS1's (to my ears).
I'm a guitarist and one of my prize possessions is a '56 Telecaster. As many times as Fender brings out a new model all I have to do is strum the old lady and the smile on my face says it all - just because it's new doesn't mean it is better. Also, what sounds good to me may not be another persons sonic nirvana.
So, in a nutshell I'm extremely happy with my RS1/UL combination. I would be interested in comparing this with whatever updates you come out with and. if there is an upgrade path, all the better - but doesn't mean I will prefer it.
I hear what you say about being in business - when I struggled for five years (I think there is s song in there somewhere) back in the early 80's to make my way in music I made very little money - but nothing can take away the memories and the satisfaction of people saying how they enjoyed the music. Keep it up, as with times as they are we rely on music more than ever to help us through.
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Posted By: DrHouse
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2012 at 10:14am
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No complaints on this end about performance. Although it is good that your are lowering that noise to cater for those coming in from their ipods etc. Apart from sennheiser, beyerdynamic etc., I don't see brands going to high impedance/low sensitivity cans anytime soon. If they did, it would probably be a 'vintage' or 'indie' kind of thing, like the recent resurgence of vinyl. And I wouldn't always say that people always move on from old to the newest as alanbass1 said. The HD 600/650 line from sennheiser is about 10 years old and for the most part still going. Although that being said, I think the UL could do with a more 'modern' look i.e. if you look at the schiit stuff. From what I've seen, people need to told that something is essential to their lifestyle. Beats went for 'Life's too short to listen to bad headphones' and 'hear the music as the artist intended it'. I wonder when/if the same will happen to amplifiers: 'life's too short to listen to unamped headphones'.
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Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2012 at 11:52am
It's so tempting to ask if his first name's Jack... So out of respect I won't. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: DrHouse
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2012 at 12:02pm
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Well, I guess appearance is subjective at the end of the day, and I'm not saying by any means that it's a bad looking product. Some online articles were saying a similar sort of thing though, so I just thought Id put it as a potential flag.
Have I struck some sort of nerve? Or was it a thoughtless comment
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Posted By: tg [RIP]
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2012 at 12:33pm
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Oh dear Gregory, I think that is called leading with your chin.
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Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2012 at 2:12pm
We know about it. Boy do we know about it! The problem is that we source everything from UK suppliers, and I'd better not say anything else because the metalworkers get upset at anything... ... hence the great looks ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: DrHouse
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2012 at 2:29pm
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aaah ok, I understand now. Like I said, only a very minor nitpick. Doesn't detract from the undeniable quality of the UL.
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Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2012 at 5:18pm
I'll also agree that our marketing isn't very flash (or is that bullcrapping?) - "A proud German name - Teutonic fortresses, ... " etc. Attention grabbing stuff indeed, but without any meaning or perhaps truth. May possibly piss-off German would-be customers. And yes, they've done a ton of stuff or so it seems. Maybe I need to brag about John my co-director rewiring the audio at London Planetarium and BBC World Services at Bush House and the miles of balanced audio cable and hundreds of jack fields - things he actually did. As for me I just did half the design work at a manufacturer of BBC and commercial radio and TV broadcast audio equipment as senior engineer for 4 years, which is also true. I could go on and on having been in the electronics and audio engineering industry since 1982 and an AV technician for the 8 years before that, after doing an old fashioned apprenticeship in heavy engineering. All of which is dead true. In fact we do say most of this. The problem I guess we have is that we write things in the old fashioned way - not quite in the same language as the King John V bible - but not in the way of spin that is so popular to the attention deficit reader of today. We really need help! Anybody out there who could translate please?  ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Jog3004
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2012 at 6:04pm
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Well Graham what about (drum roll) Don't just listen to the music....experience it with Graham Slee Products. Not sure if I've ripped off some other advert there! I suppose you could down the route of tantalising treble that succumbs to your delight, midrange that marvels in your brain, bass that explodes into your conscious, this is not any old audio product, this is a graham slee aud products. I imagine my advertising prowess is rather lacking. ------------- James |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2012 at 6:50pm
Well, it's a start, thank you. What about: "Nothing beats a Dansette Viva except a Graham Slee"? Erm, perhaps not - they won't remember the Dansette Viva or what it sounds like - and I can't either  I offered to pay a real marketing man recently but he didn't even bother to reply. I've probably got a sign round my neck saying Leper... ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: hotmog
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2012 at 6:55pm
Now the first bit I like (I'm quite partial to cheese  ). But if M&S sold headphone amps, I could certainly imagine a solicitor's letter popping through Graham's letter-box when they found the latter half of that slogan being used to promote his superior products. ------------- http://www.victorian-breweriana.uk - Hotmog's Victorian Breweriana |
Posted By: DrHouse
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2012 at 7:07pm
| Graham, how hard would it be to get some pictures and slogans for the Amps into a magazine like What HiFi? Would you need to have someone external organize that? |
Posted By: discrete badger
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2012 at 7:54pm
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Graham: your marketing, like your products, has a very high signal to noise ratio, but it's presented in the style of a thoroughly researched article not as a sales brochure. The person who knows what they're looking for and has a decent attention span will be able to find everything they're looking for by reading it. But I suppose your marketing "mission" needs to be to widen the appeal to people who maybe aren't quite so sure what they're looking for, but could be convinced. This means a more visual, soundbite, bullet-point approach. You don't have to lapse into the spin we all hate or depart from your principles; you just have to point out to the potential customer the key messages you want them to remember in an easy to digest format. When they want to dig deeper, they'll then be able to find all the details they need. I think the "Setting the Standard" captioned image is a very good start. It sums up very well your approach to developing products - you have your own standards and you won't compromise them. I think some more "soundbites" like this would be good. Here are a few I pick up on when reading the Solo UL page; some of them are quotations from other people. "A totally immersive listening experience"; "... a work of art". "2 years of solid research". "hand made in Yorkshire" I took a quick look at the websites of several other high achievers in the hi-fi industry, fairly small companies who are largely focussed on the design output of a single well-known individual, and who do not compromise on the execution of their designs by outsourcing production. I noticed that the visual aspect of the products is given more prominence. Yes, this is strange for something you listen to, but people aren't going to be able to hear the products over the web so initially, they will have to identify them by what they look like and what other people say about them. I think it's nice to see some of the inside of the products too; not to show trade secrets or anything but just purely as some visual interest from an object which is nicely made. Electronics can look very beautiful if photographed sensitively - see the main image on this website for instance, although this does not belong to a manufacturer but a repairer. http://www.highendworkshop.co.uk/" rel="nofollow - http://www.highendworkshop.co.uk/ I think you're on to something when you talk about the past achievements of the people in the company. I think it's a great selling point to a customer that you can buy a product hand made and tested by the same person who wired whole buildings for the BBC. I wonder if the connection could be brought out visually somehow, without breaching copyright. Something like "1986 - mixing desk for the Human League", ... "2012 - Solo UL in your living room". All just my personal opinion. I'm not a sales & marketing professional.
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Posted By: Jog3004
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2012 at 7:58pm
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Alright, are you ready (as I am to be shot down in flames!) "the new definition of audio delight & quality, is just a listen away......Graham Slee Products!" I accept cheques payable to...... ------------- James |
Posted By: suede
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2012 at 8:04pm
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Why not borrow from the beach boys: GSP - Add some music? Always thought that would make a nice slogan |
Posted By: suede
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2012 at 8:08pm
Or maybe: GSP - Have you ever heard recorded music before?  GSP - Hear the light But selling cheese smells too |
Posted By: Jog3004
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2012 at 8:11pm
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Joking apart, when I started recently searching for a quality headphone amp, even though I looked at the well known hifi mags, I took them with a pinch of salt, I sometimes wonder with magazine's reviews & star rating has any correlation with the advertising income potential, maybe that's is cynical but what brand wants to advertise in a mag that ditches their products, & advertising is big money for mags. I personally then searched forums, thus also finding this one, & gauged opinion from punters who use the product day to day. We collective as fans of our good man Graham Slee products maybe need to go further afield for him & post our thoughts on the many other forums available. The bonus for Graham is his products are the definition of audio delight & quality as we all probably agree & we should all sing from the rooftop. Personally I am (as I imagine we all are) grateful to Graham & his co workers hard work & considerable r&d, as a professional, I work extremely hard, & sometimes live extremely fast, & getting the chance to relax & enjoy the music that Graham's products gives to me is, pardon the term, priceless! ------------- James |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2012 at 9:58pm
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This thread has gone in an unexpected direction! ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: tg [RIP]
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2012 at 12:15am
| It has indeed, I am wondering if it might not be worthwhile separating some of this into another thread and returning this one to its original direction. |
Posted By: mrarroyo
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2012 at 12:31am
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I actually like the understated look of the GSP amps. Flashy-ness of bling should be in the sound! This from a guy who drives a 1970 VW Beetle with over 425,000 miles and still going (third engine but original transmission). ------------- Miguel |
Posted By: suede
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2012 at 12:32am
A bit ironic that it's been overrun by a cascade of OT posts about how to improve GSP marketing since threads like these usually are the best adverts for GSP products there are  I also agree with Miguel about the sober and clean looks of GSP gear. It signals quality |
Posted By: bmbrown911
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2012 at 6:25am
| I don't see anything wrong with the style of Grahams stuff. Before I ever heard anything about his amps it was the style that drew me too them . Obviously the sound sealed the deal but I've always found the Solo to be probably the best looking head amp I've seen or owned. It's simple but looks like quality. The earlier comment about the stuff from Schitt looking good to is true but I own the Lyr at this very moment and I still think my old Solo looked more upscale and elegant. My 2 cents. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2012 at 7:35am
Semi-agreed. However, they are still Solo UL impressions. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: alanbass1
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2012 at 8:49am
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And, now having cracked the 300 hour barrier (powered on), with a good 60 hours of listening, the UL sounds really great with my RS1's - or should that be my RS1's sound really great with my UL.
Grado's aren't everyone's cup of tea but they are a sound I like and the UL does compliment them extremely well (IMHO).
All this talk about noise intrigued me (the Grado's are loud through the UL at the 9 o'clock volume position). I turned the music off and whacked the volume up to the 3 o'clock position and, yes, I can hear some hiss but no way would I want to damage my 'phones or hearing at such levels (when I got the dial toward the 12 o'clock position with music it started to get unbearable).
Conclusion, for me, is that I will be sticking with this set up for a considerable time and perhaps be curious should an upgrade eventually come out - but I will need to be assured that I don't lose what I'm currently liking before making any future changes..........I've trusted these ears for long enough not to be swayed by opinion
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Posted By: Jog3004
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2012 at 10:21am
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For the short chance I got to listen to my new Solo UL with both the Grado SR325is & Phiaton PS500, I have to confess I did hear a hiss,but I do listen very loud, & both my pairs are low impedance, being relatively easy for my iPod to run without amplification. I agree with Alanbass1 though, if an upgrade was offered, I'd want assurance that it maintained the current level of quality, if not exceeded it, alternatively, It gives me an excuse to buy some high impedance cans such as beyerdynamic pro range ------------- James |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2012 at 9:15pm
I didn't mean it was a bad thing! I think it's a great discussion we're having here and I think the GSP units have a house style thanks to the aluminium cases. I like the compact size of the GSP units and the simplicity of the knobs and connectors. I think they are tastefully understated and honest in appearance, reflecting the way the electronics handle the music. I am trying to visualise the Solo or Reflex in a black box, or fitting a wooden or coloured knob on the Solo. Hmmm... I'd stick to the stock version. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: DrHouse
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2012 at 9:41pm
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Graham, do you see any chance of modifying the amplifier to have balanced cable support in the future? My DAC happens to have them and I'd quite like to take advantage. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2012 at 11:04pm
At one time I did nothing else. Balanced inputs and outputs that is. The one we had to implement was the BBC's David Birt's balanced input design in all the BBC gear. The circuit is featured in chapter 6 of the Analog Devices op-amp design book. Since then I have taken more of an interest in an "all inverting" version of the above, which in my opinion sounds better. The bones of the circuit are shown the page following Mr Birt's design. I would use a different op-amp to the one shown and different component values but essentially it does a good job of common mode noise rejection. The only problem is in the fitting of a suitable connector to make it a retro fit. We may be able to squeeze in a 5 pin DIN socket between the phono block and edge of case. Obviously XLR's would require a different rear panel and there would only be room for one input. The question is whether you'd want it professional / studio balanced or domestic balanced. Proper pro balance is 600 Ohms where the source is meant for 600 Ohms and the receiving input is terminated in 600 Ohms. It's the only way to establish the correct signal level and it has the added advantage of an extra 6dB of noise rejection. Perhaps we need another thread opening if this subject proves to be popular? ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: DrHouse
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2012 at 9:15am
Well I know that my DAC has dual 3pin XLR output, from looking at other equipment I think this is the most popular. Would it be possible to have a dual XLR to 5 pin DIN? would it still work to the same effect?
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Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2012 at 1:03pm
Yes. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: DrHouse
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2012 at 1:18pm
Nice... How much would that change the current price by Graham? |
Posted By: shamu144
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2012 at 4:43pm
My DAC has also balanced outputs (dual XLR) and it would be of course a nice alternative to RCA (but I wouldn't kill to have that option). What is not clear to me is if the internal design would then change (i.e. fully balanced ?). I understand this would not really be the case. As for the marketing talks, I have to say that the esthetic of the UL really grew on me. At first sight, it conveys the feeling of a nice case, sturdy and solidly built. The more I look at it, the more I enjoy it's small footprint, simplicity, elegant and timeless lines. Simply brilliant. Btw Graham, I read that you have sold over 1000 UL units on your main page ! That is quite an achievement. Congratulations. I still own my UL after more than 1 year and don't even plan to part with it. Your best marketing argument IMO is the time and efforts you put in educating us on sensitive and fondamental aspects like phase response and time domain aspects of music, so often neglegted. This is for me what really set your products apart from the others.
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Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2012 at 5:43pm
If you're referring to the Solo end of things, then balanced inputs would mean exactly that. It's just managing to fit in a suitable connector in the tiny space available. A 5 pin DIN is perfectly capable of handling the connections - it would still be balanced with two channels on the one connector. It is not as big and tough as an XLR but unless there's a chance of a roadie jumping on it with his hobnail boots it shouldn't matter. XLR's were developed for roughing and toughing it on road and stage sound and lighting rigs (such as DMX). Their name originally meaning shield-left-right to replace the 3 pole jack plug. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: bmbrown911
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2012 at 1:06am
| Excuse me if I sound ignorant here because I know practically nothing about balanced audio but are we talking about strictly balanced inputs without a balanced headphone output? If so, what are the advantages of strictly balanced inputs over single ended? Does it improve the sound in any way? |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2012 at 8:35am
Good question! My question is why we would need balanced headphone drive? I haven't found one headphone that's supplied configured for balanced use. In professional usage I've never come across any. But in professional usage balanced audio connections between equipment often rule the roost. OK, it's supposed benefit is that the wanted signal exists on two signal conductors that aren't reliant on the shield or ground connection so ground currents have no effect... really? In reality the ground has to be connected between equipment too, and regarding EMC (electromagnetic compatibility) that ground connection has to be an ultra-low impedance shield surrounding both conductors. Originally however, before all this EMC fuss - when radio didn't interfere in such a big way as today's "wi" world - when there were only a few other wires around to interfere - you only ever needed a twisted pair to connect things together even over long distances - for example: the telephone system (which still miraculously works today but is extremely narrow-band because of all the filtering at low and high frequencies to keep the crap out). Subjectively I prefer the balanced connection between the preamp and power amp I'm working on over the single sided one. I'm trying very hard to quantify and qualify that - perhaps the ground connection does come into play even though the ground side of both circuits follow everything man has ever learned on the subject. If the grounding of both circuits were to be as good as real science says they should be then the balanced connection should be worse because it uses twice the number of line preamplification stages as the single sided one. What does make the difference is the cancellation of common mode signals - signals that shouldn't be there but are there because of factors outside mankind's control - signals that are common to both conductors. A proper balanced driver that offers the nearest thing to true balance, and a good balanced receiver with sufficient common mode rejection takes the undesirable common mode artifacts (for the want of a better word) and severely attenuates them, leaving behind "nothing but" the "transmitted" signal. Obviously cable effects are much worse than we ever thought (with snake oil and boutique cables making us all as lemmings...), and there is a reason for the balanced mania after all. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: shamu144
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2012 at 9:22am
Maybe not ideal, but I understand the use of high quality XLR/RCA transformers (Lundhal comes to mind) would allow the connection of a XLR cable (output from CD player) to RCA (input of the UL), and still benefit from the balanced signal properties (common mode rejection?). Yes, those quality transformer are expensive, but the cost of the modification for a new 5 pin connector in the UL as well as a new cable (XLR to RCA) is not very cheap neither. Would it be worth it ?
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Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2012 at 12:48pm
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Studio and broadcast gear only uses transformers where galvanic isolation is required. Transformers don't have good LF or HF balance but electronic balance has. This is why I mentioned David Birt's balanced input configuration which achieves a significant improvement in both measured and subjective performance, and the subsequent improved all-inverting configuration based on it. Therefore, in the pipeline there is both the intention and almost production-ready design of a SS to balanced audio converter which also does the same in reverse. It is also capable of 600 Ohm operation which hi-fi in general tends to ignore, possibly because it isn't easily understood in hi-fi circles. I think you'll all find it far better than any transformer solution. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: shamu144
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2012 at 1:33pm
Graham, for those of use who are not versed in technical language, what does "subsequent all-inverting configuration" mean ? Now you have piqued my interest !
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Posted By: DrHouse
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2012 at 1:59pm
| It feels like balanced support might not be far away... |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2012 at 2:54pm
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subsequent all-inverting configuration means that it was a development from the original making it subsequent. And rather than it being based on an op-amp* with another op-amp inverting the negative feedback to make gain possible on both inputs, but with common mode rejection, which had previously proved elusive... ...the all inverting design also makes gain possible on both inputs but neither op-amp* sees any common mode voltage (better than just common mode rejection). It's quite a clever idea and it's free to use rather than being somebodies trade secret. So, you have one inverting op-amp doing one phase and another doing the other. The first op-amp's output sums with the second op-amp's input thus providing the conversion. It also only requires one gain setting resistor instead of two and the matching problems involved. The other resistors all being the same value can be easily matched by using a packaged resistor network if the board layout allows. OK, I hear you saying you're even more confused and wish you'd never asked. We're actually using this on the input of the Proprius (means professional - private - use) mono block amps, and it sounds very good indeed. (* it can also be done discretely using a differential amplifier stage in place of each op-amp but often discrete implementations fall far short of the performance the right choice of op-amp will give) ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: shamu144
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2012 at 5:03pm
Well, my admittedly very limited understanding is that you seem to be using an advanced design rather than off the shelves and common implementation of op-amp circuits to convert a balanced signal into unbalanced. That is some very loable efforts. Would it throw back the hiss/noise level by 6dB as well (as a consequence of the balance output) when used in the UL ?
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Posted By: DrHouse
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2012 at 5:10pm
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Graham, would it be possible to implement a single XLR 4 pin input for headphones instead/alongside the 1/4" jack so that balanced to unbalanced conversion is not necessary? I would plan to use something like this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PAILICCS-Balance-line-jack-Headphone-upgrade-cable-HD580-600-650-HIFI-cab-/170695059629?pt=UK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL&hash=item27be37e8ad#ht_6632wt_650" rel="nofollow - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PAILICCS-Balance-line-jack-Headphone-upgrade-cable-HD580-600-650-HIFI-cab-/170695059629?pt=UK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL&hash=item27be37e8ad#ht_6632wt_650
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Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2012 at 1:49am
You would need two amplifiers per channel to produce a balanced output. All a 4 pin connector would achieve is single sided signal to each ear-piece in exactly the same way the jack does, except the left and right ground connections would be separated instead of joined at the plug - they'd be joined inside the Solo instead achieving nothing. I think a balanced audio primer is in order. Here's a starter: http://www.ukslc.org/articles/sound/balanced_lines_2005011620.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.ukslc.org/articles/sound/balanced_lines_2005011620.html and another: http://www.mediacollege.com/audio/" rel="nofollow - http://www.mediacollege.com/audio/ with a link to: http://www.mediacollege.com/audio/balanced/" rel="nofollow - http://www.mediacollege.com/audio/balanced/ ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: DrHouse
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2012 at 8:33am
Let's get reading.
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Posted By: jrhughes
Date Posted: 05 Apr 2012 at 6:09pm
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I was thinking of opening a new thread on balanced output/input but then found this thread. I've been thinking for some time now that I'd like to move up to a Solo UL from my trusty Novo. I am so happy with the Novo that I can hardly imagine things getting better (Sennheiser HD800 and AKG K702) but the Solo UL is on my wish list anyway, as it clearly has to be better. Also, since I'm so happy with the Novo, and so impressed with Graham's (and others') knowledge/help/advice here, I'd be quite happy to buy the Solo UL blind, when funds allow. In my study room I have Apple Lossless going to CA Dacmagic to Novo. Now, the Dacmagic has balanced outputs as well as RCA and I've recently read that there's an advantage in using the balanced because the way the Dacmagic is wired means that the RCA outs are derived from the balanced, using an extra opamp or something. So more components in the signal path when using RCA. I *could* get a Lehmann BCL Pro, which substitutes the RCAs of the BCL for XLR inputs. But something is stopping me... I'd rather have a Solo. And I'm not sure I want an amp which only has XLR input. If balanced is supposed to be better than RCA, why doesn't all Hi-Fi gear use it?
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Posted By: discrete badger
Date Posted: 05 Apr 2012 at 11:09pm
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Like you, I had the Novo, was very happy with it and thought the sound was pretty good. But the Solo UL is simply on a different level. It goes way beyond extremely good and into the realms of extraordinary, IMO. If I'd bought one blind (deaf?) I'd have been delighted, but thanks to the loan programme I didn't have to. |
Posted By: discrete badger
Date Posted: 05 Apr 2012 at 11:25pm
| Oh and one other thing - if you're worried about the extra op-amp with your CA single-ended output, simply pick up an XLR socket to phono plug lead; that way you use the noninverting pole of the balanced out to drive the single-ended input of the Solo. I have to do this as my DAC is balanced-only, and this works fine for me into the Solo or a single-ended power amp. |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2012 at 11:18am
+1 on the leap from Novo (very good) to Solo UL (excellent). Jon ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: tg [RIP]
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2012 at 12:08pm
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I own a first edition "green" solo and have had extensive listening experience of the Novo when it was released being a member of the pre-release "round robin" evaluation of that product. My Solo was perceptibly better than the Novo at that time. Having recently had experience of the Solo UL, I can say that the gap between my Solo and the UL is greater than the gap between the Novo and my Solo. I would echo the sentiment expressed above, that it is not simply better than the Novo, but a completely different level of experience. |
Posted By: jrhughes
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2012 at 8:08pm
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Thanks for the replies. OK, I hadn't considered XLR to phono, so that's a very good reason for me to be much less concerned about the lack of balanced inputs on the amps. Very good tip - cheers! And thanks for the further confirmation that the Solo UL is so much better than the Novo. Honestly, I find the Novo so good that I can hardly imagine it getting better, so I can't wait... although I'm currently considering a phono preamp upgrade too (as Jon knows - I'm on the list for a loan :o) ) so I'll have to make a decision as to which comes first. Best wishes, Jason
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Posted By: bmbrown911
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2012 at 11:41pm
| I also agree with what everyone is saying when comparing the UL to the Novo. The Novo is great but not on the level of the UL. It's an amazing piece of equipment. |