Graham Slee Headphone Amps - headphone equalize debate -

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headphone equalize debate -

Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: Headphone Audio
Forum Name: Graham Slee Headphone Amps
Forum Description: Questions, answers and product information zone for Graham Slee Headphone Amplifiers
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1222
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Topic: headphone equalize debate -

Posted By: TALON1973
Subject: headphone equalize debate -
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2011 at 6:09pm

i use another forum for pc use , and a topic came up in regards headphones ..... was originally about what type of headphone to get ......then someone came in with headphone equalizing...... which ive never coem across and think is complete rubbish ........but its turning into a laugh ...

woudl love Graham or any of the mods to pop over and lend some wieght into this as i'm quite interested in what the answer is myself :)

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18330271" rel="nofollow - http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18330271

Replies:

Posted By: ellisdj
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2011 at 9:02am

Hi

It was me who posted on the other forum about eq headphones - my cousin brought it to my attention about 2 weeks ago - until then I was loving the sound of my pc to heapdones HD558 via the Novo. I was very reluctant at this stage to change anything - stubborness and ignorance on my part

I read this article http://www.head-fi.org/t/413900/how-to-equalize-your-headphones-a-tutorial
Listened to my cousin talk about his positive personal results and explanations as to what and why.
I then went and had a listen to his - came home listened to mine and immediately I could hear where it was wrong

Next was to give it a try - I found it easy to find the main resonant frequency 7501 - but it took more tim to realise I have 3 resonant frequencies 5000, 7501 and 11500

An hour or so later I was semi happy- a few days later of tweaking and I am quite happy now.
The tweaking has had me reducing the resonant frequencies more and more

The reason it took so long for me to be happy is that all the time my mind was telling me by reducing the frequency more and more I am losing more and more detail.

Once I realised that was not the case - I actually realised by doing it I was actually bringing out more detail in the mid range, opening the soundstage up and the highs sounded more realistic.

Looking over other forums and posts everyone who tries it properly seem convinced and the tutorial really helps with the process.

I added into another forum post to try and help people find this out - to me get your 595's sounding their best before you spend £260 on a new set of cans HD650s.
You might find they will have the sound you are looking for without spending a penny - you will also see that I have strongly recommended a Slee amp as an upgrade as I also believe as an owner that it will make a big improvement as well

However there seem to be people not willing to try - obviously the guy who brought the debate to this forum who thinks its "rubbish".

How can a headphone manufacturer make something to perfectly suit everyones ears - they cant - therefore tweaking is surely required based on that thought alone!
The guy in the tutorial makes references to Siegfried Linkwitz and his process of discovery then elimination makes a lot of sense. You adjust the sound of your headphones on your ears to get as flat a freq curve as possible .

Posted By: mrarroyo
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2011 at 11:27am

Equalization in general is a heavily debated subject, whether you are using speakers or headphones. I normally find speakers/amp/etc. that meet my sound preferences without the need of using equalization. In my youth I used parametric equalizers to make up for the room deficiencies and also room treatment to deal with excessive reflections. It worked to some degree but it was a very expensive exercise.

As far as headphones I do not use it since the equalization built into many digital players creates distortion. Some of the newer add ons to iTunes do a much better job.

-------------
Miguel

Posted By: ellisdj
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2011 at 11:57am

Hi Mrarraoyo

To test that theory I have tried listening to the same song through media player and then foobar ( with eq installed but flat) and they sounded similar - better fro foobar

Therefore the eq used Electri-Q is not adding any distortion thats audible to me.

Posted By: tg [RIP]
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2011 at 2:24pm

Must say this is the first I have heard of headphone eq.
Rather than going on hearsay, I went to the source of the reference to Linkwitz, %20" rel="nofollow - http://www.linkwitzlab.com/reference_earphones.htm to see what this respected speaker designer had to say on the subject. I suggest you do so also as a first step.
That alteration of the output of your headphone amplifier by an output filter network as he has done or by DSP prior to amplification will alter the sound of your headphones is without question.
Whether that alteration will be an improvement is a question for the individual to answer for themself.
It is worth noting on the Linkwitz page his final paragraphs WRT the Shure E2C - that he did find 3 broad peaks but did not consider that they needed eq.
This suggests to me that the desirability of eq will vary from headphone to headphone (and perhaps by amplifier dependent on their own colourations if any) and listener to listener.
I would suggest that this topic be taken as information to be received and tried for oneself, I am not sufficiently technically knowledgeable to provide any particular reasons why this might or might not be a worthwhile exercise.
I have found my preferred headphones to have a very similar balance to my speakers and am disinclined to tamper with that, particularly using DSP, however, should the time offer I may do so, if only to be better informed on the subject.
I would be very interested in Graham's take on this.

BTW the conclusion that eq is not adding distortion, if judged by listening when set flat, does not appear to be a valid conclusion.
Perhaps you have not elucidated your testing fully or I have misunderstood.

Posted By: ellisdj
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2011 at 2:46pm

Hi TG

Thanks for the reponse

This is about making your current kit sound better - not changing any sonic characters that you have grown to love. people will spend £0000s trying to improve sound - sometimes it the free things we can do that make all the difference.

Simple test and stage 1 - run a signal sweep a few times at a decent volume and see if you hear clear peaks in volume as the sound goes up the frequency range - I am betting you will.
If that is the case consider you are hearing these frequencies potenitally 9db above the others around it - that is not how the headphone manufacturer intended yo to hear it.

You can use the software Sinegen to do this manually - its the best way as you can move up the range slowly to hear and record the start middle and finish of the peak.
Youy can also set macros of any frequncy at any db level.
Therefore when you find the middle of the peaking frequency you can set macros at -1 db - 2 db ... - 9db etc at that frequency you can then quickly go from a reference frequency (one you know is not peaking and at 0db) back and forth to the different db levels to hear which sounds the closest in terms of volume.
You then now roughly how much that freq is peaking and how much it will need reducing in the eq - make sense, not explained greatly?

There are a lot of forums with info on this - I am certainly not the only one suggesting it improves sound. Its made a big impact on me to the point where I am bothering to write all this - I expected everyone to already be doing it and thought they would be telling me new stuff related to it

Trying to get onto the Linklwitz page to read his comments but I think we all must be crashing it atm

This is where the reference is made
I am a strong proponent of properly applied equalization. When used correctly, equalization can make a good headphone great, and a great headphone superb. And most headphones need at least some equalization. In my 3 years since joining Head-Fi, having heard and used many different types of headphones, I have noticed a phenomenon that has occurred with every headphone, ear bud, and IEM I have ever used. I first read about it at Siegfried Linkwitz's page some years ago, where he discusses his method for equalizing the Etymotic ER4S. He states that "an acoustic impedance mismatch between transducer, ear canal, and eardrum" is causing a resonance that results in a large peak at 7.5kHz, coloring the sound. He and a friend of his also experienced the same effect when using a pair of old Sennheiser HD414s. (For the record, I'd wager good money this is the primary reason why so many people cannot tolerate the ER4S.)

I too have noticed this, with my HD650s, ER4Ss, and even my STAX headphones. Anyone is susceptible to this effect, and unless your headphone's inherent frequency response happens to match your personal resonance frequency, you are likely already experiencing the effect. Even very high-end headphones will exhibit this problem.

On this comment

"BTW the conclusion that eq is not adding distortion, if judged by listening when set flat, does not appear to be a valid conclusion.
Perhaps you have not elucidated your testing fully or I have misunderstood"

I have just twigged - using the included eq adds distortion is what was meant by the comment - maybe that is the case - bear in mnd here we are reducing freq not adding anything.
The tutorial is stating the need to add in a good equlaizer - one that allows you to set the exact freq, exact db change and the steepness that it happens by Electric Q is suggested.

Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2011 at 8:28pm

The link is http://www.linkwitzlab.com/reference_earphones.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.linkwitzlab.com/reference_earphones.htm - it is well worth a read as Tony wrote.

I'm with Miguel, start from a sound you like! And try different types of headphones (or speakers) and to find the best sounding one for you at the price. By all means fine tune with carefully judged EQ to get your best take on your chosen model. But you can't make a Tele into a Les Paul ...and why would you? Measuring the physical behaviour of the transducer, inverting it and applying the correction digitally will be a compromise, possibly a very good one.

Put the speakers in a room or wrap the phones round your head and it gets more complicated. Just open the curtains or move the sofa or the paintings on the wall, and the room acoustic changes a bit. That's real life for you! Even headphones on your ears are different to mine because they are complex cavities attached to a membrane and a brain. We may agree on what sounds better and I hope on the pleasure of tinkering/tweaking the hi-fi gear we use.

IMO EQ has a place when I want more bass or treble for particular recording. The rest of the time it is turned off!

-------------
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.

Posted By: ellisdj
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2011 at 11:01am

I am in this position and I bet most are in the same.

I buy 90% of things online - as I feel I get the best deals and can shop about.
There is nowhere near me to go and demo anything of decent quality.
I went to my local Seven Oaks and had a listen to the £3k+ Arcam AVR600 - now bearing in mind they are trying to get you to spend £3k on the amp, probs £3k on the B&W speaker system - maybe £2k on the Panny Plasma its on in their demo room + More on cables - I should walk out of there and want it all because it is so good!
For starters is sounded poor - setup badly poor - there was no CD player to listen to the AVR on bearing in mind the Stereo playback is supposedly the reason you buy the expensive Arcam. The sub was all boom - no finesse and I walked away disappointed in it all and bought a £2k Pioneer AVR LX-83 that had blown me away on first listen in my cousins house as it was setup properly!!
Now the Arcam is arguably better but in the demo it did not even come close!

My point being it’s not easy to listen to different types of headphones to see what I like best without buying them all - which is not possible. Its even more impossible to do with speakers as they cost 10x what headphones cost.

With every upgrade we are chasing better sound, how often do you actually sit and listen and don’t pick apart what you are hearing? How often can you sit and listen to every CD you own without thinking - I hate that hiss there, That sounds wrong, I hate / wont listen to that CD as I can’t stand the sound of it ?
For example Adele 21 - when I first got this CD I nearly sent it back as I thought it was the worst recorded album I have ever heard, I thought I must have a dud CD.
I spoke to several long time audiophile relatives who wont listen to it despite liking the music – due largely to how it sounds - very shrill to say the least.
I took the CD round to my cousins to listen to it against his exact CD and to both our amazements mine sounded a little bit better than his - this is the 100% truth.

This highlighted an obvious problem elsewhere - we both have a Pioneer LX-83 AVR and were both running in Pure Direct Mode with a REL sub wired via high level, both off Meridian CD Players( mine 506.24 his 506.16). I have B&W 805 speakers - so fairly high end.
We discovered that if we used the amp in stereo mode i.e. with a crossover set to 80htz, using the advanced MCCAC calibration (I have adjusted to get a better / flatter curve rspsonse) - which is basically an 8 point eq with a few other very good tech features the sound such as standing wave correction the sound was drastically improved, as the eq/ tech is counteracting the room effects - all of a sudden CD's that were unlistenable - were very much listenable, and actually sounded ok - like Adelle 21

This took me a while to swallow - I was at first convinced the sound in pure direct was better - being a purist - However I was very very wrong - listening to music from a closer to reference curve is far far better, so much more balanced, clearer and no more cd’s you can’t listen to.

I am not saying all CDs are recorded well as they obviously not - but there is no CD I can’t listen to anymore as it sounds horrible

This was very much the same with the subwoofer – we have introduced a neat little gizmo called an Antimode that equalises your bass to reduce unwanted peaks that the room causes. This results in much better bass for both music and films.

My overall point of all this is that equalisation on my main system has made a dramatic improvement to the overall sound! I wouldn’t dream of listening to music now or watching a film with it turned off! I am also not saying a stereo Krell with no eq wouldn’t sound better for stereo than my Pioneer as I am sure it would – however I know my room would still have its effect on my 805’s.

Therefore why are headphones any different really ?

If I had not had such positive results equalising my main system I would not even dream of eq them – however the results with my main system have been so dramatic – I have heard clearly the improvements that can be made I was more than willing to try.

Now if I bypass the eq Electri Q on foobar things sound very wrong / bad – similar to how they sound when I switch over to pure direct on my AVR . I can clearly hear the peaks at the frequencies that do when listening to music – this makes voices sstt at times, sound high pitched – it exaggerates symbols and masks the clarity and spaciousness that comes through in the mid range. None of that is right – that won’t have been how it was recorded.

For example Bob Marley - Legend CD – most people probably own it.

Track 5 Buffalo Solider – when the eq is on and right you can hear two backing singers voices one in each channel / ear clearly come in each side and sing from behind / the side of you during the chorus – when its off the sound is there but it’s just a muddle with the rest of it.

That’s just one easy example I can think of that easy for you to test.

You need to also consider with eq the headphones – you are only reducing – never adding anything to the sound – i.e. only lowering frequencies! Therefore you are not adding distortion – you are actually reducing inherent kind of distoretion that’s caused by the headphones being on your ears.

You are certainly not adding bass and not adding treble – IN FACT if your system is setup close to a flat curve you will never need to add or take away anything – you will be able to listen to EVERYTHING and know the way you are hearing it is how it sounds / supposed to sound.

Posted By: suede
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2011 at 5:26pm

I've never lamented the lack of an EQ on my UL since I seem to have a slight aversion towards them in the first place. However I have sometimes missed the good old mono switch when listening to old mono records with a stereo pickup.

Edit:
Sorry, didn't read the thread properly. Thought it was about old timey analog equalizers.

Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2011 at 8:25pm

If it helps I used Audessey auto-setup on my Denon home cinema amp. 7 channels and a sub is more than I want to do manually! In fact it helped me choose the next amp because it does a very good job IMO. But I use a stereo amp on the front L/R and do all the moving around of left and right speakers for 2.0 before running Audessey.

Posted By: ellisdj
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2011 at 9:05pm

That seems a common solution to overcome typical lacking stereo performance of AV amps - however a problem of that is you then have a different sonic characteristic to your front 2 main speakers - from your other 5.

With home cinema you want it all to match as much as possible i.e. same speakers etc, especially across the front 3, thats your main sound stage.

Its expensive to get the perfect solution - however I can strongly recommed the Pioneer top end AV Amp range - the lX83 is simply stunning - I upgraded from the very highly regarded and very good Yamaha Z7 - the Pioneer LX-83 however is in a different league.
The new LX85 is supposed to be stunning in Pure direct as well now relieving the need for a stereo amp - I still stand by the fact that it will sound better after a calibration and in stereo mode i.e. crossing over, using the eq, standiung wave correction etc, however for the purist you can have your cake and eat it