New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - PHONO Stages.... Oh No.... help
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Welcome to the Graham Slee Audio Products Owners Club

 

Open to all owners plus those contemplating the purchase of a Graham Slee audio product wishing to use our loaner program: join here
Subscribe to our newsletter here (Rules on posting can be found here)


PHONO Stages.... Oh No.... help

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 5>
Author
JohnnySH View Drop Down
New Member
New Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 Feb 2018
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 13
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnySH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: PHONO Stages.... Oh No.... help
    Posted: 15 Apr 2019 at 7:52pm
Still in the realms of looking for a good phono stage,

any feedback will be very much appreciated

I have tried the G.S. Accession which to be honest I was disappointed with! mainly with the build quality, it looked a bit like a home made electronics kit!

Din Connectors & plastic DC jacks were cheap and cheerful, the PSU also looked a bit like a maplin kit!

I'm not here to criticise, but if I'm in the Realms of spending +£1000 and upwards, I am expecting quality and expensive grade connectors Nutric etc. not cheap plastic din / jack connectors and plastic PSU casework.

This is constructive criticism and I'm only telling it as a consumer looking for a high quality RIAA phono stage.








For very similar money to G.S. Accession there is an Italian GOLD NOTE PH10 preamp, built like a tank with quality throughout, just wondered if there was any constructive feedback on this item, 

Has anyone compared this with Graham Slee units and what is there take on the comparison of the two phono stages mainly soundwise, and it's unfair to compare quality as they are poles apart in quality of build.

It has a very rich feature set, Supports 2 turntables, all settings via rotary encoder and front display, Load Settings, Multiple eq Curves Decca, Riaa, etc. Balanced Outputs .....YES this is what i Want!!! 

At the moment testing it with AT440MLB cart, as previously tested with a few other makes of RIAA phono stage. 

I have only had it on loan for a few days, but so far very impressed apart from the balanced outputs are too high signal wise. It is very clean sounding though would like to try it with an Audio Technica VM760SLC MM Cartridge which I am planning to get in the next few days.

As this is the place for educated analogue guru's any feed back as always appreciated.

This is proving the hardest purchase of all!! never thought looking for the right RIAA stage would be so hard!

But I am a perfectionist through and through and quality means everything to me 
  
 
So far this if the first RIAA preamp that is ticking most of the boxes for me within a price range that is not off the scale!!! 

You know what I mean!!! Crazy People, Spending Crazy Money, and trying to hear things that ain't even there! 

this item is still in the REAL WORLD cost wise






Edited by JohnnySH - 16 Apr 2019 at 12:21am
Never give up looking for perfection, I don't!
Back to Top
patientot View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Nov 2018
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 201
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patientot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2019 at 8:47pm
I don't know about you but I buy items for the performance, not the looks. The PSU-1 being in a plastic case should have no impact on the performance AFAIK. 

Personally I would never buy the Gold Note unit, mainly because I have specific requirements for what I need that may or may not apply to you.

Biggest flaw I see is the input capacitance being fixed at 220pf. That is too high for many newer cartridges, especially Audio Technica (which you mention and I've used also) which tend to be very sensitive to capacitance loading. 

Next flaw I see is the input impedance. Lots of options for MC but little for MM. If you are going to make a big deal about this in ad copy then follow through. I'm not aware of too many MM/MI carts that sound best loaded at 22K, which is the only other option besides 47K. You mention the 440 which I found I could get fairly flat by loading at 39K and 100pf at the phono preamp. Can't do that with the Gold Note. 

Last thing which is a big thing for me personally is the overload margin. GS does very well on this and is up front about stress testing. 

GN says it can take 7mV. Okay, but can it take that on a hotly cut record? We don't know because they don't say what the overload margin is. 

BTW it looks like your RCA cables in the pic are swapped around the wrong way. Red should be on the bottom with white on the top. 

Back to Top
JohnnySH View Drop Down
New Member
New Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 Feb 2018
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 13
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnySH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2019 at 9:15pm
Thank you for the reply as always appreciated,

To be honest I design electronics for a living and If I were designing for the high end audio industry I would not be designing my Audio Power Supply Units in plastic enclosures 

1) they look cheap and cheerful, and do not sing the quality of +£1000 phono stages
2) Plastic cases will allow induced noise to other electronics from the internal transformer, any PSU electronics and mains frequency to radiate through the plastic enclosure and be picked up by other sensitive electronics.

A fully shielded metal quality case / enclosure is by far the better option for quality, aesthetics, looks, and electronic noise shielding, and heat sinking. This is just my take on it as a quality electronics design engineer.


As regarding your other points on the PH10, thank you very much for you're input and yes I do agree with most of what you said.

the AT440MLB is a funny kettle of fish!, never really been that happy with it, it's exceptionally toppy! but in a bit of an unpleasant way. And I guess why it requires careful loading and matching.

I agree that this phono stage is very limited for MM with only 2 resistance values and fix capacitors!!
so you do have a valid point on MM cart matching

I am planning to get the AT VM760SLC just to see if I like the sound quality more the the 440ML ??

As regards to PH10 level, it is off the scale too loud!! seriously both RCA and Balanced

and can not even connect my ORTOFON NIGHT CLUB 2E cart as it's RED LIGHTS all the way CLIP CLIP DC DC, those poor front end op amps being fed by the PH10.... are hitting the supply rails

Though one can not complain about build quality and the price it is pitched at..... I was looking at the Cyrus Audio Signature phono stage and still may go down that road as it has had many many great reviews.

As regards to the RCA leads, thanks yes you are right ! but was simply doing quick level comparison between my other preamp, so these were not final connections.

and thank you for your valid input, it is very much appreciated

Regards


Edited by JohnnySH - 16 Apr 2019 at 12:10am
Never give up looking for perfection, I don't!
Back to Top
Richardl60 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 04 Nov 2014
Location: Yorkshire
Status: Offline
Points: 1427
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richardl60 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2019 at 9:21pm
You are correct on the aesthetics of the Gold Note it does look HQ build from the outside as do the connectors; Graham’s products are all ‘functional’.  

I do prefer to see HQ fittings whether be sockets, connectors etc and though the red input cable doesn’t appear to match the same level of quality at the GN 10 connectors.

Having tried both GSP and GN10 how do you find the difference in sound (the acid test) and was my reason for buying the Accession?


Edited by Richardl60 - 15 Apr 2019 at 9:37pm
The Source turntable, Audiomods V micrometer, Dynavector XX2-2, Accession M, Elevator, Leema Antila 2Seco CD player, TDL studio 1.
Back to Top
patientot View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Nov 2018
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 201
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patientot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2019 at 9:40pm
Johnny SH, I'm sure Graham can explain the power supply you take issue with here or privately. I'm no electronics engineer but I have fought with RFI and other types of interference with one phono stage (not a GS) so I discussed this issue at length with the U.S. loan coordinator. In practice, when I auditioned a unit with the PSU-1, I could not hear any RFI or other interference whatsoever. I am also in a 2 mile radius of several radio and TV stations. When I had the PSU-1 on loan, I simply put it on the bottom shelf of the equipment rack, a little ways away from the phono preamp unit and basically out of sight. If the PSU-1 really required a full metal enclosure I would think that Graham would have made it that way. FWIW here in the U.S. there are other high-end/hi-fi phono stage builders that use plastic PSUs similar to the "brick" type you get with a full-size laptop...

Re: the 440, here is my rough graph of it loaded at 39K + 100pf phono preamp capacitance - take this with a grain of salt and do your own testing with a series of loading plugs and test LP to determine the best loading in your system...This is a sweep off the CBS STR100 test record...at least it gives you a rough idea that the upper peak can be tamed. Not done through a GS phono either, but I don't think it matters. 


RE: the 760SLC, I posted a link in another thread about a different AT cartridge to a site that did objective test measurements of the 540ML, 740ML, and 760SLC. In short, the SLC, though more expensive, did not measure better than the others. It actually measured worse and had more peaking in the FR than the other two. FWIW AT said straight up in an interview that they charge for different advanced profiles based on supplier costs which then get passed onto the consumer. AT doesn't say what the SLC is but I believe it may be an Ogura profile. The ML is a Namiki Microridge. You can look up the patents on both on Google Patents and compare them yourself. 

Back to Top
JohnnySH View Drop Down
New Member
New Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 Feb 2018
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 13
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnySH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2019 at 9:58pm
To be honest

The PH10 is not the worst sounding Phono stage I have heard... seriously..

but I do agree with the limitation of the MM side of this pre amp.

bang for buck, this unit is truly out there, no getting away from that!

maybe a few internal tweaks with the PH10 electronics (improve the MM matching options, Tame the levels both for both balanced and non balanced would be a major step in the right direction)!!


Hello and thank you for another reply it is very much appreciated, I kindly do not require any info on power supplies as I design both linear and switching power supplies on a daily basis.

Please do not think I am criticising as I am not! It's only constructive and the way I would design, everyone has their own idea, what is also very important is what is inside. 

Hey!! at least we are all having a educated discussion :-)

and thank you so much about the feedback on the AT carts, so if im not wrong you are saying the 
VM750SH is a better option than the 760 ??

Oh and how do these compare to the ORTOFON 2M black and this was going to be my first option, but now favour the AT route

regards


Never give up looking for perfection, I don't!
Back to Top
patientot View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Nov 2018
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 201
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patientot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2019 at 10:08pm
Originally posted by JohnnySH JohnnySH wrote:

To be honest

The PH10 is not the worst sounding Phono stage I have heard... seriously..

but I do agree with the limitation of the MM side of this pre amp.

bang for buck, this unit is truly out there, no getting away from that!

maybe a few internal tweaks with the PH10 electronics (improve the MM matching options, Tame the levels both for both balanced and non balanced would be a major step in the right direction)!!


Hello and thank you for another reply it is very much appreciated, I kindly do not require any info on power supplies as I design both linear and switching power supplies on a daily basis.

Please do not think I am criticising as I am not! It's only constructive and the way I would design, everyone has their own idea, what is also very important is what is inside. 

Hey!! at least we are all having a educated discussion :-)

and thank you so much about the feedback on the AT carts, so if im not wrong you are saying the 
VM750SH is a better option than the 760 ??

Oh and how do these compare to the ORTOFON 2M black and this was going to be my first option, but now favour the AT route

regards



If it were my money I would skip both the SH and SLC models and go for an ML model instead. The ML profile has a thinner side radius than either the SH or SLC variants. That means better inner groove tracking IME, which is something I put a high premium on. The Shibata and Ogura patents came well before the Microridge (a/k/a ML) and are less advanced designs with a fatter side radius. Unless you have a particular reason for prefer those stylus shapes I would choose an ML instead. 

Re: the 2M Black, totally different. I've never had one in my system but it has its followers. You will likely need a very robust phono stage with this cartridge that has a very high overload margin especially if you play hotly cut records. Output was measured at 8.6mV by this mag, far greater than factory spec:

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 5>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.063 seconds.