New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Passive preamplifier with GS phono
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Welcome to the Graham Slee Audio Products Owners Forum

 

Open to all owners plus those contemplating the purchase of a Graham Slee HiFi System Components audio product and wishing to use this forum's loaner program: join here (Rules on posting can be found here)

This website along with trade marks Graham Slee and HiFi System Components are owned by Cadman Enterprises Ltd


Passive preamplifier with GS phono

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
jmiguelbarone View Drop Down
New Member
New Member


Joined: 16 Mar 2021
Status: Offline
Points: 9
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmiguelbarone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Passive preamplifier with GS phono
    Posted: 16 Mar 2021 at 3:23pm
Hi! I hope you're doing well in this weird times.

I want to know about experiences with passive stereo preamps and GS MM phono.
What preamplifier input impedance works?
What range in voltage output from cartridges it's better?

Ok, let me know what do you think about it.
Thanks and regards.

Back to Top
Fatmangolf View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 23 Dec 2009
Location: Middlesbrough
Status: Offline
Points: 8998
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Fatmangolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2021 at 8:31pm
Before I got a Majestic I built a passive stereo preamp to go between my Reflex M, DAC, and Proprius amps. It has a 6-way switch and a 10k pot, this worked reasonably well with all those devices. I also included an on-off-on switch that offered the main output,  a fixed output to my Solo Ultralinear and a central mute position. I tried the main amp output feeding out to some active speakers and to another amplifier. All seemed to work well enough but there are limitations to the cheap passive preamp or 'pot in a box.'

Hope this helps you Miguel.

Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.
Back to Top
jmiguelbarone View Drop Down
New Member
New Member


Joined: 16 Mar 2021
Status: Offline
Points: 9
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmiguelbarone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2021 at 10:49pm
Of course it helps ... thanks for your time.

Back to Top
Graham Slee View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Retired

Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Location: South Yorkshire
Status: Offline
Points: 16298
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2021 at 1:35pm
The main objection to passive preamps is that they have a large "driving impedance."

They tend to be best matched with valved amplifiers, which have a high input impedance.

When used with a solid-state amplifier, its input capacitance, which is essential to prevent slewing distortion (after Otala), joins with the large driving impedance to form a high-frequency filter. It might therefore result in some loss in how "lively" the sound is. Some call this a loss of dynamics, but it is better stated as being soft on transients.

Some may prefer the laid-back signature, but how laid back will it be?

If it is a "pot in a box," and that is all it is, then the worst driving impedance occurs at the potentiometer's electrical midpoint and on an audio taper volume control pot that appears at the 3 pm setting (approx.). It is where the resistance on either side of the wiper is half the pot's value.

Using Kirchhoff's circuit laws, looking out from the power amp's input, both resistances are seen as being in parallel, and so the worst driving impedance is one-quarter of the pot's value. If 20k, then the driving impedance is 5k. This assumes the driving impedance of the source selected on the passive preamp is suitably low.

If set to say 11 am or 12 o'clock position, the bottom half of the pot is lower resistance, and it appears in parallel with the higher resistance of the upper half. By calculation, it can be seen that any other setting than the electrical midpoint results in a smaller driving impedance. In other words, it is less of a problem at normal listening levels.

Using my 70's power amp circuit as an example, it has 10k of its own input resistance as part of a low pass filter with 440pf of capacitance, so it cuts at 36kHz. If I add 5k of resistance - making 15k - then it cuts at 24kHz. That might be audibly acceptable. I designed it to be so.


However, other power amplifiers might use smaller resistances and larger capacitances, meaning the cut frequency might venture into the audible spectrum.

Another thing to watch is interconnect length and interconnect capacitance, which also acts as a low pass filter.

A passive, provided it is not very expensive, can be considered a starting point.
That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps
Back to Top
Sylvain View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 481
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Sylvain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2021 at 4:01pm
.......A passive, provided it is not very expensive, can be considered a starting point....
I sought to blame the electronic Volume control of my DAC and it's huge 2.8V output to less than expected  of transient dynamics. I have resorted to build a passive Pre Amp,  a Shunt design Step Attenuator exebiting an expensive 10K resistor on the signal track.

I am still building but Hope it does not disappoint with ''dynamics'!! on the Proprius.

 


Back to Top
jmiguelbarone View Drop Down
New Member
New Member


Joined: 16 Mar 2021
Status: Offline
Points: 9
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jmiguelbarone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2021 at 5:44pm
Originally posted by Graham Slee Graham Slee wrote:

The main objection to passive preamps is that they have a large "driving impedance."

They tend to be best matched with valved amplifiers, which have a high input impedance.

When used with a solid-state amplifier, its input capacitance, which is essential to prevent slewing distortion (after Otala), joins with the large driving impedance to form a high-frequency filter. It might therefore result in some loss in how "lively" the sound is. Some call this a loss of dynamics, but it is better stated as being soft on transients.

Some may prefer the laid-back signature, but how laid back will it be?

If it is a "pot in a box," and that is all it is, then the worst driving impedance occurs at the potentiometer's electrical midpoint and on an audio taper volume control pot that appears at the 3 pm setting (approx.). It is where the resistance on either side of the wiper is half the pot's value.

Using Kirchhoff's circuit laws, looking out from the power amp's input, both resistances are seen as being in parallel, and so the worst driving impedance is one-quarter of the pot's value. If 20k, then the driving impedance is 5k. This assumes the driving impedance of the source selected on the passive preamp is suitably low.

If set to say 11 am or 12 o'clock position, the bottom half of the pot is lower resistance, and it appears in parallel with the higher resistance of the upper half. By calculation, it can be seen that any other setting than the electrical midpoint results in a smaller driving impedance. In other words, it is less of a problem at normal listening levels.

Using my 70's power amp circuit as an example, it has 10k of its own input resistance as part of a low pass filter with 440pf of capacitance, so it cuts at 36kHz. If I add 5k of resistance - making 15k - then it cuts at 24kHz. That might be audibly acceptable. I designed it to be so.


However, other power amplifiers might use smaller resistances and larger capacitances, meaning the cut frequency might venture into the audible spectrum.

Another thing to watch is interconnect length and interconnect capacitance, which also acts as a low pass filter.

A passive, provided it is not very expensive, can be considered a starting point.

Thanks, it's really good that someone with your experience gives me their opinion.

Back to Top
Aussie Mick View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Feb 2014
Location: Bendigo Aust.
Status: Offline
Points: 1091
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Aussie Mick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2021 at 8:36pm
Hi,
  I’m driving Proprius amps direct from my Accession in an all vinyl system. However, when I want to add more sources (parties, family gatherings and the like), I use an English made passive preamp by Townshend. It gives plenty of level from digital in the 11-1 o’clock positions. For vinyl I move to 12-3 o’clock on the volume, but I use a .25mV cartridge, the Rega Apheta 2. It sounds great.
Mick.
Rega RP8 - Apheta 2 - Accession MC Enigma PS -Solo ULDE (Focal Utopia) - PS Audio M700 - Fical Kanta No2
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.109 seconds.