New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - No more live
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Welcome to the Graham Slee Audio Products Owners Forum

 

Open to all owners plus those contemplating the purchase of a Graham Slee HiFi System Components audio product and wishing to use this forum's loaner program: join here (Rules on posting can be found here)

This website along with trade marks Graham Slee and HiFi System Components are owned by Cadman Enterprises Ltd


No more live

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Analog Kid View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 209
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Analog Kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: No more live
    Posted: 01 Feb 2009 at 3:04pm
What happened to the good old days when music was recorded live in the studio, with all the musicians playing at the same time? In the past it used to be:

Recorded and mixed at: Studio A.

But now it is more like:

*Vocals recorded at Studio A in January
*Guitars recorded at Studio B in March
*Bass recorded at Studio C in May
*Drums recorded at Studio D in July
*Additional overdubs recorded at Studio E in September
*Mixed at Studio F in November

And then they pass this off as music...bits and pieces of sound recorded at various places and times, and then edited and glued together. Listen to most modern music: there is no ambiance anymore. You don't get a sense of the space and air the music was recorded in. There is too much "fix it in the mix" nonsense going on. Too many musicians phoning in their parts. Singer has a sore throat and is singing out of tune? No problem. No reason to re-schedule. We just use a pitch shifter to fix up his vocal tracks. Guitar player unable to be in the studio at the scheduled time? No problem, he can just record his parts in his basement at home and send them by e-mail. I would rather have a live-sounding recording with a few imperfections or mistakes, than a sterile and lifeless recording that has been heavily over-processed.

"We can fix mistakes more easily this way" - they say, but how are they going to fix those mistakes when playing live in concert? Hmm? And what's with the thousand overdubs and harmony parts? In a band with two guitar players, who is going to play those 3rd and 4th guitar tracks live on stage? Why record something in the studio that you can not reproduce faithfully in a live setting? One cello player I spoke to, from a string quartet, told me: "I am just not that good of a cello player", when I asked him why his quartet does not record an album live direct-to-disc. Maybe people like him should go home and practice and come back to the studio when they learn to play.

Is anyone else bothered by this? Let me know what you think.



Edited by Analog Kid - 04 Feb 2009 at 12:08am
Back to Top
Lucabeer View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Location: Torino, Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 711
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lucabeer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2009 at 8:08am
Well, I actually have to agree. The most incredible example of this is the last (and long delayed) Guns'n'Roses album: actually it's not bad at all, with nice hooks and fine playing, but it sounds so f*ckingly processed and artificial that it's impossible not to feel at least some disgust. Sure, it's slick as hell, but sometimes even an untrained ear will notice that there is something wrong: too many layered instruments, some blatant use of a vocoder to help Axl in the most difficult passages, heavy ProTools editing. And yes, no ambiance unless you call ambiance the effects added digitally.

Personally I am not a fan of 100% "live" music: I understand that for some genres the synthetic feel is actually a bonus. Being a raving fan of Depeche Mode, I love the sound of their albums, their electronic artificial sound and the fact that they ASSEMBLE their songs rather than PLAY them in studio (although it must be said that they often use tricks like the reverb of a real recording room to have a less "synthetic" feel). At least, anyway, they still manage to sound great live too: quite simply, they adopt a different (but not less effective) style for live concerts. So, great very polished albums, and great energetic live shows (the last one I saw in Manchester was stunning, and I plan to see them in Milan in June).

The last drop is that even bands from genres that used to call for a "live in studio" approach are going backwards. Take for example metal: if there was a genre of great musicianship, that is metal. In metal, especially the more "progressive" variants, you really must know how to play, you have to learn impeccable timing. Today, many metal bands have forgotten this and resort to technical wizardry to assemble their records. Take Metallica and compare "Master of puppets" with their latest "Death Magnetic": apart from the obvious difference in creativity and songwriting, "Death Magnetic" sounds slicker... but emptier (well, actually it's also one of the lousiest mastering jobs ever heard, with such a nauseating dynamic compression and clipping that it's unbearable to listen unless you have a cheap boombox of a stereo). And of course, live they now suck.
Staying with metal, also Dream Theater's most recent albums show this "digital trickery"/cut&paste studio assembly. But at least they sound good, and they still can play very well in a live concert too (well, apart from LaBrie's voice... which in studio recordings is helped ENORMOUSLY by studio techniques).

On the other hand, I was enormously surprised to hear Opeth (stunning band!) live: they play with the same virtuoso intensity, precision and fantastic interplay that they show on the studio albums. At least some metal bands still do it "the way they used to".  


Edited by Lucabeer - 03 Feb 2009 at 8:08am
Back to Top
Analog Kid View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 209
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Analog Kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2009 at 12:05am
While I have not heard the new Guns'n'Roses album, what you describe does not surprise me one bit. The majority of rock and metal albums these days are so heavily processed and over-produced, that they not only sound lifeless and artificial, but are totally unlistenable. I have listened to metal since 1993 and more than half of all the LP records in my music collection, are metal albums, so I am very disappointed and disgusted with the sound of most modern metal. I have completely stopped buying new metal albums, because I know they all sound exactly the same: heavily automated, sampled, triggered, edited and manipulated. Regardless of which country or studio they are recorded in, they all suffer from the exact same miserable and flawed recording methods, microphone techniques and the familiar ProTwells sound. All are hyper-compressed and loudness-maxmized to pieces.

The reason for recording digitally and not using a live approach, is not so much a cost issue; it is all about convenience. If bands recorded digitally just because it was cheaper, you could argue why then do bands like Metallica and Iron Maiden who could easily afford building their own recording studio any time they want, record all their albums digitally? Because it is quicker, easier and more convenient. Once they get carried away with the infinite possibilities of the digital recording approach, and realize how easy it is to manipulate the sound and fix mistakes, they no longer want to go back to the old live analog approach. Another reason for why metal bands love ProTwells: these days most guitar players have home studios, which usually consist of a computer in a bedroom and a few microphones. Having ProTwells at home, allows the guitar players to record parts at home in the comfort of their own dumpy bedroom studio, and then to take these parts into the studio the next day to continue working on them with their band. This is such a big convenience, that they are simply not willing to exchange it for the old approach, even though it sounds better.

I agree with the continuing degradation in sound. There are some metal albums from the 1980s that sound great, in terms of sound quality and production. Why anyone would want to change that thick, fat and warm wide-range analog sound is beyond me, but change it they did the second they could. There is no hope for any improvement, because the bands and musicians themselves think there is nothing wrong with the new sound. Someone complained to Anthrax's guitar player Scott Ian that the latest Anthrax album was too compressed and loud and he answered that it did not sound squashed in his car stereo or on his portable music player. Responding to complaints about the abysmal sound on Metallica's "Death Magnetic" album, drummer Lars Ulrich said "It's 2008. This is how we make records".

Few people now seem to be able to play their instruments skillfully and with inspiration.  Folks who are second-rate guitarists now record their own drum tracks, because they can edit this and loop that little part they accidential played correctly. ProTwells has made matters worse. Now even Joe Blow can lie on his back in his bathtub at home and record a rock album.

As for Depeche Mode: I also love the sound of their albums. Since their music is entirely synthetic, it does not matter that it is not recorded live.

When I listen to music, in particular rock or metal, I want ambiance and energy. I want a natural and authentic sound. I don't get that when the music is multi-tracked, close-miked and heavily processed, layered and edited. If I was in a band I would record everything completely live without any overdubs. One song, one take. No edits. With a minimum number of tracks and microphones. No more than 8. And no multi-tracking. I would record everything live direct to two-track analog tape.




Edited by Analog Kid - 04 Feb 2009 at 12:20am
Back to Top
Lucabeer View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Location: Torino, Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 711
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lucabeer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2009 at 8:15am
"Few people now seem to be able to play their instruments skillfully and with inspiration.  Folks who are second-rate guitarists now record their own drum tracks, because they can edit this and loop that little part they accidential played correctly. ProTwells has made matters worse. Now even Joe Blow can lie on his back in his bathtub at home and record a rock album."


Mmmmmm... Dragonforce, anyone?
Back to Top
Analog Kid View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 209
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Analog Kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2009 at 4:24pm
I had never heard of Dragonforce before, so I went on YouTube to listen to some clips. Absolutely horrible. I could not listen to them for more than a few minutes. Gave me a headache. I can not believe they pass off such garbage as music. Sounds like any other band in the power metal genre though. They perfectly symbolize everything that is wrong with metal music these days.




Edited by Analog Kid - 04 Feb 2009 at 4:25pm
Back to Top
Lucabeer View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Location: Torino, Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 711
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lucabeer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2009 at 8:35pm
Actually the comparison you should make is between how Dragonforce sound in the albums (annoying cartoon sound, totally empty music... but an incredible speed and technique - at least if one is naive enough to think that they were actually playing that stuff), and how they sound live. Yes, because live they clearly show that in the albums then can mantain that speed and prowess only thanks to digital cut&paste.

I got to know this band "thanks" to the Guitar Hero III game, where their song is so ridiculously hard to play even with the toy guitar of the PlayStation... And as a matter of fact, even the guitar player of the band failed miserably when asked to play the song in the game (which should be easier than the real thing)!
Back to Top
Analog Kid View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 209
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Analog Kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2009 at 1:18am
Something that might interest you: Metal Chuch is as far as I know the only metal band that still records and mixes all their albums on analog tape. From their first self-titled album released in 1984, to their latest album, 2008's "This Present Wasteland", all were done totally in analog. Metal Chuch's founder Kurdt Vanderhoof is a big fan of analog. Sadly however, their last few CDs have been ruined by miserably poor (and loud) mastering jobs, so you don't get a chance to enjoy that analog sound.

http://www.metalchurchmusic.com



As far as music recorded live in the studio...unfortunately nobody does that anymore. At least not in metal. It's a shame. There are however two Anthrax albums that were recorded live in the studio:

Anthrax - Live: The Island Years (tracks 9 to 12 were recorded live in the studio) - 1994
Anthrax - The Greater Of Two Evils (a compilation of re-recorded songs recorded live in the studio) - 2004






Edited by Analog Kid - 05 Feb 2009 at 1:23am
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.125 seconds.