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More Burn-in Misinformation |
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Graham Slee
Admin Group Retired Joined: 11 Jan 2008 Location: South Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 16298 |
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Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 7:47am |
More Burn-in Misinformation
I was taken by surprise reading a long rant by a particular company owner against solid-state burn-in, in which he displayed considerable ignorance, and used it to convince others he was right. It was 2006 and he might have since repented, so forgiveness would be in order, plus I have considerable respect for what he does, so I will not name to shame. He cited the data provided for electrolytic capacitors as reason for it being madness to leave an amplifier (or other electronic item) on. Electrolytic capacitor lifetime is usually shown as 2000 hours which is roughly 12 weeks. Therefore he deduced an amplifier would be no good after being constantly left on for 12 weeks (he didn't exactly state it this way - I'm simplifying it for you to understand). He also seemed to be against electrolytic capacitors in general because of the fact they are "wet" and that they dry out, and that would be on reaching 2000 hours. Another thing he noted was their leakage, but that doesn't mean the oil leaks out causing them to dry out. So what does the specification mean when it says 2000 hours? There are qualifiers, and one of them is the voltage rating, another the operating temperature, and ripple also enters the equation. But let's take temperature rating. A general purpose electrolytic is rated at 85°C, which isn't far from boiling point. If run at room temperature the lifetime is going to be far greater, and page 7 on this data sheet gives a useful chart to show how much longer: https://docs-emea.rs-online.com/webdocs/15c4/0900766b815c4ed0.pdf At 40°C at rated voltage and ripple we find the multiplier is 50. Instead of lasting 12 weeks, it's now 600 weeks, or eleven and a half years. But, if ripple current is less, say half, then the multiplier is 70, taking it to 16 years. And this ripple current is only maximal when operating an amplifier at rated power, which is where the "reservoir" is being emptied at a larger ratio to what it is being "filled" (charging current), so if left idling when not playing anything, could that take it to 20 years, or 30 years? So far this has been at rated voltage, but we always provide latitude, and will use 100V capacitors on a 70 volt supply for example, extending life further. The bit about leakage is not the moistness leaking out (as stated above). It is electrical leakage, leakage current to be precise, and this is what happens at first use. The larger the electrolytic (in voltage and capacitance) the larger the leakage current. But this subsides over a period of time. This being an exponential curve, it will gradually reduce to zero, or as near as damn it. When first switched on, the circuit voltages go to their places as capacitors charge, but it takes a little longer to reach the exact voltages because of leakage current. Some can take hours, or even days, to accurately settle to the voltages required in a design. The product works however, and tests out specification wise, but left on longer the measurements often improve, but time is money - how much do you want to pay? Leakage current eventually dissipates. If it didn't the circuit would never charge to the right voltage, but we know it does. Another part of the argument went that with solid-state, on switch-on the amplifier is instantly up to its working "speed" or it couldn't be handling music, so burn-in is just twaddle (my words, not his). Leakage current proves this argument wrong. But what is solid-state? Solid-state is chemicals replacing physicals. Rather than a glass bottle containing a vacuum where electrons can play given the catalyst of heat; transistors and the like pass electrons between chemicals (doped silicon). They are temperature (warm-up) dependent - one only has to view the term VT... VT is the thermal voltage kT/q (approximately 26 mV at 300 K ≈ room temperature) ...but that's mathematical modelling, and it can hurt, so we tend to avoid it. But we cannot go around telling folks what's what if we can't be bothered finding out if what we say is true. |
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Graham Slee
Admin Group Retired Joined: 11 Jan 2008 Location: South Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 16298 |
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Another bit of common sense which comes from 24/7 broadcasting: you don't see the equipment being replaced every 12 weeks!
Maybe after 5 or 10 years? |
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patientot
Senior Member Joined: 28 Nov 2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1531 |
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Very interesting stuff...well above my pay grade.
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Aussie Mick
Senior Member Joined: 21 Feb 2014 Location: Bendigo Aust. Status: Offline Points: 1091 |
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keep it flowing, Graham.
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Rega RP8 - Apheta 2 - Accession MC Enigma PS -Solo ULDE (Focal Utopia) - PS Audio M700 - Fical Kanta No2
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Graham Slee
Admin Group Retired Joined: 11 Jan 2008 Location: South Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 16298 |
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And as far as drying out goes, I wonder if anybody has played with triethylene glycol (TEG)? That's the stuff used for disco "smoke" and is allegedly now the "oil" in electrolytics. Somewhere in patent land there's an invention with my name on it, and the thing vapurises TEG, but after numerous trials I found the substance had settled as a slimey residue all over the test bench and literally everywhere else, windows and all. So it went up in smoke and came back down as liquid. So do the capacitors dry out?
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That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps
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Graham Slee
Admin Group Retired Joined: 11 Jan 2008 Location: South Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 16298 |
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More on TEG: When you try and heat it, it "runs away". This being something which caused the heating tube to hot-spot when it could "run no more". The only part of the invention which was patentable being the black-heat sensor. So, when you apply heat in soldering the wires of an electrolytic capacitor that's what's going to occur inside it. The TEG will shy away and there will be some "drying" of the separator paper nearest the wire connections. Given time, the TEG will re-wet. Obviously in this period the capacitor will not behave exactly to spec. And it seems to take several hours to a few days to gather itself together, or that's how it sounds. On designs which stabilise and then go on to work well continuously the bass on initial use is as if it's been boosted, but on other designs which don't do so well, everything sounds just about great at switch on. First impressions might not be lasting impressions where TEG is concerned. |
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That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps
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Fatmangolf
Moderator Group Joined: 23 Dec 2009 Location: Middlesbrough Status: Offline Points: 9001 |
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It is interesting that the initial author had confused leakage current with electrolyte leaking out of the can. I heard something similar about the stains around caps on an active speaker PCB and explained it was more likely to be glue used as an anti-vibration measure.
Are there any non-litigious hi-fi brands that use TEG Graham? |
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Jon
Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
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