New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Lack of Gain Settings?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Welcome to the Graham Slee Audio Products Owners Forum

 

Open to all owners plus those contemplating the purchase of a Graham Slee HiFi System Components audio product and wishing to use this forum's loaner program: join here (Rules on posting can be found here)

This website along with trade marks Graham Slee and HiFi System Components are owned by Cadman Enterprises Ltd


Lack of Gain Settings?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Robnpg View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 29 May 2020
Location: Chicago, IL
Status: Offline
Points: 122
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robnpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Lack of Gain Settings?
    Posted: 30 May 2020 at 3:49pm
Noob question here. Most of the phono stages I’ve looked at From other brands have Selectable Gain settings. I noticed the Accession and other GSP line members do not. Is this a cause for concern? A weakness? Or this there a philosophy behind it?
Back to Top
Graham Slee View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Retired

Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Location: South Yorkshire
Status: Offline
Points: 16298
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2020 at 4:05pm
Originally posted by Robnpg Robnpg wrote:

Noob question here. Is this a... A weakness? Or this there a philosophy behind it?


Neither.
That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps
Back to Top
patientot View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Nov 2018
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1525
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote patientot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2020 at 4:53pm
Originally posted by Robnpg Robnpg wrote:

Noob question here. Most of the phono stages I’ve looked at From other brands have Selectable Gain settings. I noticed the Accession and other GSP line members do not. Is this a cause for concern? A weakness? Or this there a philosophy behind it?

You don't need all those gain settings. I had two different switchable gain units and there was only one gain setting I ever used despite having half a dozen different cartridges. My GS Reflex has fixed gain, but works with any MM/MI cartridge I've had. No problem, I just turn up the volume on my amp a little for the ones that have a little lower output. Try it and you'll see. 
SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.
Back to Top
Graham Slee View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Retired

Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Location: South Yorkshire
Status: Offline
Points: 16298
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2020 at 5:04pm
It rather depends on what you're after regarding your vinyl listening, and not everybody is the same.

Take Westminster Choir, Festival Te Deum by Benjamin Britten. Although my copy is not on vinyl (it's a FLAC), it demonstrates the holographic - or not - characteristic of this piece dependant on the characteristics of the electronics reproducing it.

If my 65-year-old hearing can tell the difference between a warmed up power amplifier, then that same amplifier after being turned off, and then back on again - some characteristics of the electronic circuitry must have changed.

Any disturbance changes a system component's characteristics, including changes in ambient temperature and mains voltage variations over time.

But when we come to the exact frequency response tuning of a phono stage, and we decide to go and make a change to the gain of the circuit, it isn't just a mild, characteristic change. Switching from one level to another changes the frequency response. It might be incremental, but we have changed that characteristic.

However, we have also changed the component characteristics. To change the gain to another setting implies that redundant components exist. Those components are out of use most of the time, but when selected, they must adjust to new conditions.

In the case of a passive interstage equalised phono stage (the majority), the gain stage having the alteration in gain no longer has the same characteristics. Changing gain implies a difference in loop gain, and such a stage no longer has the same input and output impedance.

Driving a passive EQ section with a different source impedance changes the EQ: this was partly why tone controls became so unpopular, and no matter how phono EQ is done, it is precisely the same as tone controls, except fixed.

However, once you introduce gain control (switched or variable), the curve of the EQ changes with it.

This is why there are specialised products (such as ours) which are made within tight tolerances to reproduce the music, all other things equal (which generally aren't) to the same standard as the one sold to the next customer.

That's how I, as a designer, choose to do my job.
That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps
Back to Top
BAK View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 Mar 2010
Location: Kentucky, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1744
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote BAK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2020 at 6:43pm
Graham's designs account for the EQ being constant with fixed gain stages where the EQ is affected.
The gain of each stage is designed for the average of the requirement for each stage needed and also made to have more than enough headroom to account for hot passages.
 
The level controls incorporated in the Accession (M and C) are buffered in such a way that the level control itself cannot upset the EQ needed, ie... the frequency response of the unit is not affected by adjusting the level control. This is the same design for the Solo, Majestic DAC, and the Proprius level controls.
Bruce
AT-14SA, Pickering XV-15, Hana EL, Technics SL-1600MK2, Lautus, Majestic DAC, Technics SH-8055 spectrum analyzer, Eminence Beta8A custom cabs; Proprius & Reflex M or C, Enjoy Life your way!
Back to Top
Robnpg View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 29 May 2020
Location: Chicago, IL
Status: Offline
Points: 122
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Robnpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2020 at 8:29pm
Great info folks! Can’t wait to get an Accession in my hands. 
Back to Top
zyss View Drop Down
New Member
New Member


Joined: 04 Nov 2013
Location: St. Petersburg
Status: Offline
Points: 28
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote zyss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 2020 at 9:41pm
Meetoo, I was wondering whether the gain of my excellent Revelation M is excessive for my system. I drive my power amp directly from it and have to attenuate the signal by about 20dB (using passive attenuator). I understand from Graham's reply that a variable gain in a phono stage has its problems. But would a low-gain phono stage, with a fixed gain of 21dB, produce the same result as the existing Revelation M with its 41dB minus 20dB of attenuation I apply afterwards? I am aware that phono stages with gain less than 35dB are probably not commercially available. Is there a reason for that?
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.203 seconds.