New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Rega P3 Helicopter Buzz
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Welcome to the Graham Slee Audio Products Owners Forum

 

Open to all owners plus those contemplating the purchase of a Graham Slee HiFi System Components audio product and wishing to use this forum's loaner program: join here (Rules on posting can be found here)

This website along with trade marks Graham Slee and HiFi System Components are owned by Cadman Enterprises Ltd


Rega P3 Helicopter Buzz

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Immisc View Drop Down
New Member
New Member
Avatar

Joined: 27 Dec 2019
Location: Auckland
Status: Offline
Points: 31
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Immisc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Rega P3 Helicopter Buzz
    Posted: 11 May 2020 at 6:16am
Hi Guys

I just got gifted a Rega P3, and I have just plugged it into my system, which involves a Graham Slee Reflex M into a Pioneer A400. When I plugged the new turntable into the Graham Slee, there is a random helicopter type buzz that is noticable from mid volumes to loud volumes. I have to note that this is with the turntable not plugged in or turned on (which suggests its not an earth issue?), it happens as soon as the RCA loop is completed. I never noticed it with my old turntable (Old Technics SL-D3). Any advice on what this could be, what I could do to fix it? If there's any extra info required, ket me know. But your help would be mega appreciated.
Back to Top
Graham Slee View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Retired

Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Location: South Yorkshire
Status: Offline
Points: 16298
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2020 at 10:57am
Originally posted by Immisc Immisc wrote:

I have to note that this is with the turntable not plugged in or turned on (which suggests its not an earth issue?), it happens as soon as the RCA loop is completed.


Unless things have changed, the mains only connects to the motor circuit, and there is no mains earth because Rega TTs are class 2 "double insulated".

The on/off switch is an inline single pole - single throw switch with a snubber across it to reduce inductive click noise when switched on or off.

The "earth" which connects to the phono stage chassis, should not be called earth, simply because it confuses the sh*t out of most owners. It is a remnant from the Ark!

It should be known as the ground, or common, or for those who understand the concept "nought volts."

In the Rega RB arm, one of the cartridge -ve wires (more confusion) is joined with the arm metalwork, and its screen or shield in the interconnect cable, carries the (wrongly named) "earth" to the phono stage ground. This however, should work, but can induce noise picked up by the "wand" onto the signal, should there be any noisy circuitry nearby.

Noisy circuitry is quite often a DECT phone; X-box or similar; anything run off a switched-mode power supply (except ours), and so on.

Why Rega would choose only to use one channel for the arm ground is something I'm not party to. I have rewired a Technics such that both left and right screens are commoned to the arm ground point, and it is dead silent. The conventional way of a separate "earth" wire is also dead silent.

Most electronics engineers accept that there is nothing but constant airborne, and otherwise induced interference, and so if the grounds are connected together stiffly then any "ups and downs" due to interference are common to all parts of the circuit, such that no different potential can exist, and therefore, the circuit cannot "see" any interference. If we all jump up and down at the same time, we are always the same height!

Unfortunately, this common sense is lost on some arm manufacturers. The only way the "wand" can be at the same potential as its mounting base, is to run a wire between them. This doesn't happen with some of the great and good. Instead, the bearing contact is relied upon, being metal-to-metal. Have they not heard of lubricant?

So, after a few weeks of use, the problem might go away, after the lubricant wears thin enough, or it might not.

Good luck,
Graham
That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps
Back to Top
Immisc View Drop Down
New Member
New Member
Avatar

Joined: 27 Dec 2019
Location: Auckland
Status: Offline
Points: 31
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Immisc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2020 at 10:12pm
Thanks so much for your reply Graham. It took a few reads for it all to sink it. But, yes, you are right, only one day in and the helicopter buzz is no longer there. I love my Phono Stage by the way, thanks for making such great products. I took a leap without listening to one first, and it's been worth it. I'm looking forward to the day when the rest of my equipment rises to meet the standard of it.
Back to Top
Immisc View Drop Down
New Member
New Member
Avatar

Joined: 27 Dec 2019
Location: Auckland
Status: Offline
Points: 31
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Immisc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2020 at 1:35am
hi again, so I was a little hopeful when I said the buzz was gone. It did get a little less but it is still there. I have discovered exactly what it is though. There is a wireless repeater 1m away from the turntable and a little closer to the phono stage. It is definitely causing the buzz. Now is the wireless repeater effecting the phono stage or the turntable or the cables? And if I can’t shift it away, is there another way to fix the buzz?

Cheers
Jamie
Back to Top
Graham Slee View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Retired

Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Location: South Yorkshire
Status: Offline
Points: 16298
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2020 at 5:04am
There is always a cause. You aren't alone in this, I discovered the same 45 years ago, mine was a lamp dimmer.

An amplifier will amplify what it is given at its three inputs: the audio input, the audio output, and the power input because it will always find its way to the input.

All semiconductors are based on the diode, and the first-ever radio receiver was the cat's whisker or diode!

Given a choice between a bipolar junction transistor (BJT) and a field-effect transistor (FET), you'd go for the latter where there is the likelihood of radio interference because that's what it is. So that's what all my MM stages use. They used to be BJT, but then the mobile phone became less regulated and more powerful, so I redesigned.

But it isn't the phono stage's fault that strong radio frequencies are breaking-through. There is, for a start, a capacitive filter right at the input - the capacitive load - trying to defeat it. There has to be some form of antenna, and it's called the pick-up arm.

The cartridge assists it because, at radio frequencies, the MM is like an open circuit. It is an inductive device, and its impedance rises with frequency. But, eventually, its winding capacitance comes into play, making it a tuned circuit also.

Therefore, you have two wires inside a metal tube, like Faraday's key in a thunderstorm, waiting to pick up any strong magnetic field that the radio device emits.

But the arm is grounded to the phono stage! At one end! Which means that at some high frequency, the arm offers no protection, and assists in transmission.

RF power density reduces with distance, and if I'd have sited the lamp dimmer the opposite corner of the room, instead of in the lovely fireplace surround, which the turntable was stood on, it would not have been a problem.

The answer, providing you're right about the source of the problem, is distance. Most people can move the turntable away sufficiently to remedy the situation, such that the electromagnetic interference falls below the semiconductors' susceptibility. You're going to have to try.

For some reason, turntables are exempt from EMC legislation, probably because the above facts are known, that they cannot comply, but there is still a good market for them, but insufficiently large to make any real EMC impact.

By making the arm tube the shield such that the cartridge commons attach to the headshell metalwork, and emerge at the arm base as cable shielding, the cartridge signal wires would be effectively shielded at all existing radio frequencies. Also, making the headshell wrap around the cartridge a bit more (like they used to) would assist shielding from RFI.

However, manufacturers don't need to comply. There isn't the legislation. They go the opposite way, with exposed cartridge wires, sexy carbon fibre (which offers no shielding at all), and a tiny flat plate or bit of flattened tube which to attach the cartridge.
That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.156 seconds.