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Frequency Response Comparisons

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miT View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote miT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2019 at 12:33am
There have been some interesting viewpoints so far so I must have struck a nerve... Embarrassed

Originally posted by patientot patientot wrote:

My issue with 100% subjective reviews of anything is that they seldom discuss everything I want to know. Often they read like paid ad copy to me. 

Nowadays I do spend more time looking at specs and measurements before buying anything but it's not the sole determining factor in a purchase. Features, budget, practicality, and how it will work with the other equipment I already own are also major factors in my decision-making. 
This comment is closest to what I meant as I stopped listening to reviews when I first discovered GS Projects, and my view remains unchanged as even unbiased reviews are still someone else's subjective view. But a "review" of FR which compares products against a non-subjective benchmark provides the ability to shortlist models for demo (in the hope that the benchmark suits my taste) as the only other option for the perfect match would be to demo every single set in production until you find the one(s). I am essentially doing that now and it is a nightmare, especially as demos on IEMs are generally not permitted so you are expected to buy blind.

The comments on sound signature make sense but I guess my view puts me in the "purist" category mentioned as the real world does not come with an EQ, it sounds natural. To deliberately add colouration is moving away from that sound which seems counterproductive to me.

Bear in mind however that any sound in the real world will be dependent on environment interaction before the frequencies reach your ears so as was mentioned, flat response from speakers does not sound correct and neither should it. Interestingly Harman have been carrying out research to establish a benchmark sound for headphones. The research shows how speakers with a flat FR in an anechoic chamber sound terrible in a normal room due to frequencies reacting with the room. NAD and PSB are the only two companies I know of to use this "RoomFeel" tuning in their headphones, although I am yet to demo either. Tyll was useful for something at least... Wink

Back on topic and as this has never been an option before, I have only ever pursued my [perceived] natural sound from headphones as this makes them sound transparent to me. For whatever reason anything that doesn't sound natural to my ears distracts me from the music; I could not however tell you what the frequency response chart would look like as I have not been interested enough to establish this before.

Harman's research and the RoomFeel tuning does intrigue me though as you could potentially have the most amazing "listening room" on tap without readjusting the furniture. I doubt it's current implementation however when you consider how cheap the headphones are (£150ish for the wired PSB variant).

Until it becomes mainstream across the industry (which is unlikely to ever happen), I will instead continue to embrace the limitations of headphones and pursue headphone transparency.

I think it is safe to say the general consensus outs Inner Fidelity, but what about the second website? This one is more crucial due to IEMs being incredibly difficult to demo and of the ones I have tried, only one set sounded acceptable but were uncomfortable and expensive (£1000+).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote miT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2019 at 12:42am
Originally posted by Drewan77 Drewan77 wrote:

As well as being in agreement with the other responses above, I will add that although my system has an in-room flat frequency response, without adjustment this results in a sterile presentation (room with solid walls/floor, acoustically treated + sophisticated DSP).

Adding a gentle boost to mid-low frequencies sounds far more engaging and realistic without losing impact or cleanness of the bass. Although the change is quite subtle, the difference in musicality and enjoyment is significant (even though a purist would say this has added some colouration).

Therefore I believe that reviews & measurements are only pointers towards decisions that need to be made by demoing and listening, preferably in the setup that's going to be used.  
As per my last post to the thread, I completely agree with you as that would be expected. When I was compiling my home cinema, I demo'd some seriously expensive systems (£100k & £250k) in purpose built, acoustically treated rooms. While a music system will likely suffer in this environment, I must say that it is the complete opposite for cinema systems as they sounded incredible! The "nuances" of surround sound are not exactly subtle at THX Reference Level though as my jeans were literally flapping from the LF! Shocked
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WigglyWoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2019 at 2:47pm
Reviews are well and good but are prone to being subjective (naturally), biased (due to personal preference or gentle persuasion from the manufacturer) or too scientific (it measures badly therefore it must be bad), or a combination of all three...

I tend to use reviews as a way of signposting items that I might like to audition, and the more independent reviews there are that corroborate each other the more likely that item will stay on my short-list...

But ultimately you have to listen, and you need to listen in the environment in which you'll be ultimately using the item (or as close to that as you can get).

In the past I've been swept away by items that haven't necessarily received all the HiFi press gongs, simply because they worked well in the context of my system and listening environment from my subjective view... and naturally, I've been less than impressed with some that have won awards...

I've even singled out a product lower down in the pecking/price order as working more synergistically than one at a higher price, much to the disbelief and arrogant dismissal of the hifi dealer - more expensive I've learnt does not always mean better, even from the same manufacturer... you just have to listen...

To use an over-worked analogy, the 11 best footballers in the world won't make the best team...


Solo ULDE; Reflex M; Accession MC+Enigma and other tomfoolery...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patientot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2019 at 11:03pm
Originally posted by miT miT wrote:


I think it is safe to say the general consensus outs Inner Fidelity, but what about the second website? This one is more crucial due to IEMs being incredibly difficult to demo and of the ones I have tried, only one set sounded acceptable but were uncomfortable and expensive (£1000+).

I've only ever used IF to look at measurements out of curiosity. I'm not a big headphone guy, so I don't read headphone reviews with any regularity. As to the second website linked upthread, I briefly perused it but have never seen it before. You are right that it seems to be more specialized on the IEM side. 

IEMs are not something I've ever been super into and I've never spent much on them. I use them in very noisy environments where blocking out noise is critical, such as airplanes, trains, noisy coffee shops, the gym, etc. I tend not to do extended listening with them as they are also uncomfortable to me, even with comply-type memory foam tips. 

Now, the guy on the second site does explain his measurement methodology and offer a number of disclaimers. As to his subjective rankings and labels he applies to various headphones, no idea. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote miT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2019 at 6:48am
Originally posted by WigglyWoo WigglyWoo wrote:

Reviews are well and good but are prone to being subjective (naturally), biased (due to personal preference or gentle persuasion from the manufacturer) or too scientific (it measures badly therefore it must be bad), or a combination of all three...

I tend to use reviews as a way of signposting items that I might like to audition, and the more independent reviews there are that corroborate each other the more likely that item will stay on my short-list...

But ultimately you have to listen, and you need to listen in the environment in which you'll be ultimately using the item (or as close to that as you can get).

In the past I've been swept away by items that haven't necessarily received all the HiFi press gongs, simply because they worked well in the context of my system and listening environment from my subjective view... and naturally, I've been less than impressed with some that have won awards...

I've even singled out a product lower down in the pecking/price order as working more synergistically than one at a higher price, much to the disbelief and arrogant dismissal of the hifi dealer - more expensive I've learnt does not always mean better, even from the same manufacturer... you just have to listen...

To use an over-worked analogy, the 11 best footballers in the world won't make the best team...


We are 100% in agreement there! I have demo'd a lot of headphones recently but, unless my DAP is unable to power them well enough (which I doubt due to how well it does on my HD-540II), the majority were complete garbage to my ears. The supposed highend simply sucks the life out of the music.

The issue I have is that very few places allow you to demo IEMs for understandable reasons. I am hoping to visit one on Thursday but am not keen on going down the closed-back route for commuting as IEMs are easy to store and not cumbersome when worn.

As per your experience, I have generally found that the mid range products sound better (to my ears) than the highend stuff. This has proved true with Beyerdynamic, Focal, Sennheiser, Audeze and Campfire Audio. I need to demo again but from my limited demo time with the Beyerdynamic DT990, I believe they are the closest match I have tried to date to the HD-540II... What do dealers know anyway??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote miT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2019 at 6:59am
Originally posted by patientot patientot wrote:

I've only ever used IF to look at measurements out of curiosity. I'm not a big headphone guy, so I don't read headphone reviews with any regularity. As to the second website linked upthread, I briefly perused it but have never seen it before. You are right that it seems to be more specialized on the IEM side. 

IEMs are not something I've ever been super into and I've never spent much on them. I use them in very noisy environments where blocking out noise is critical, such as airplanes, trains, noisy coffee shops, the gym, etc. I tend not to do extended listening with them as they are also uncomfortable to me, even with comply-type memory foam tips. 

Now, the guy on the second site does explain his measurement methodology and offer a number of disclaimers. As to his subjective rankings and labels he applies to various headphones, no idea. 
To be honest I have not really read much from IF; they simply appeared on my radar due to being measurement led, or so it appeared.

Sadly my primary requirement this tims is [passive] noise isolation due to using them travelling. I would suggest that the comfort is sublime if you use custom ear moulds but at the same time ear shape, etc. all has a part to play. Of my recent demos, a lot of the current and highend models are ludicrously uncomfortable as the outlets are bigger than your ear canal so they rubber tips hurt. The yellow sponge type ones adjust perfectly but for hygiene reasons I would likely get custom moulds again as you can wash them with soap.

I do not really understand his rankings either so was using it more as a shortlist; if I like the sound of something that he says is an S score and neutral, then I need to look more into that type of sound. The one thing I will say is that his "scores" seem to match my limited demos so there is hope... I have no idea where you can find most of those models in the UK though!
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