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Welcome to the Graham Slee Audio Products Owners Forum

 

Open to all owners plus those contemplating the purchase of a Graham Slee HiFi System Components audio product and wishing to use this forum's loaner program: join here (Rules on posting can be found here)

This website along with trade marks Graham Slee and HiFi System Components are owned by Cadman Enterprises Ltd


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paul_barnett View Drop Down
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    Posted: 02 Apr 2018 at 10:29am
Hi. Just joined.

My record player is an lp12/ekos2/dv10x5(homc) into an arkless 640p (and onwards to khozmo passive/nytech cxa/ca/arc101 active amp/speakers).

I've just upgraded to lingo4 on the lp12 and that has made a massive improvement, and has in turn got me wondering about the phono stage. So I joined the forum so that a loan of a gsp phono might be possible in the future.

does anyone have experience of the arkless 640p, and therefore which gsp phono would be an appropriate one to start thinking about. (I'm looking for something better, not just different (if that even means anything))

I'm in no rush, the lingo4 is only two weeks old, and I want some months to get used to it before I consider more changes...

meanwhile, It seems I have some forum reading to catch up on...


Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote morris_minor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2018 at 1:35pm
Welcome to the forum Paul.

I don't know the phono stage you have so can't comment on this, but I'd say to get the most from your front end Graham's top of the range Accession would be a good place to start if it's in your budget. The loan scheme is definitely the way to go! 
Bob

Majestic DAC/pre-amp
Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V
Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50
2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2018 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by paul_barnett paul_barnett wrote:

(I'm looking for something better, not just different (if that even means anything))


Well put.

One man's better is another man's worse, etc...

Most designers (and reputable tweakers) can do the necessary mathematics, model phase and gain margins, ..., etc, and maybe even understand that different components can lead to different sounding results - even if the differences cannot be measured - and that's because test methods always lag subjective discovery.

Take THD: somebody heard distortion, then somebody figured out how to measure it. Test methods always lag subjective discovery.

Elna, Panasonic, Rubicon, Nichicon and so on, all make "audio capacitors" and find at least by manipulating foil etch ratios and rubber bung springiness, the sound takes on a different signature. Elna even went so far as adding particles of silk, and other organic materials to separator paper which altered the sound further. Most of this has stopped since RoHS enforced the removal of allegedly dangerous "preservatives".

Before RoHS it was good business - it made money - and these companies have shareholders to satisfy. Those accusing them (and the people who talk about it) of BS need take heed. Why does anybody do anything?

And that neatly leads me to the subjective differences which many hear between phono stages.

Over my 40 plus years of research (being a "vinyl nutcase" as well as being an engineer) I've tried just about everything regarding phono stages - from the sublime to the ridiculous - and I'm totally convinced that there can be at least 100 different sound qualities - whilst the phono stage itself complies with basic rules of flatness, low distortion, and acceptably low noise.

It all boils down to taste - personal taste - and that's all. A designer can only hope that what he designs fits more personal tastes than the other man's.

And that is exactly what it's all about (and incidentally, what the Trolls will never understand).

Now, there are (and have been) designers who are cock-sure that they have identified the holy grail and stick rigidly to it, suggesting there is no other way. I too could think that way, but I'd be lying to my own ears.

OK, back to Paul's debut post, and the 'better' he is looking for, and this applies to everybody...

If you're used to a particular sound which floats your boat, and that sound is diametrically opposite to what you hear from another (fine) product, then what are you going to conclude?

Most people will say the newly introduced product is worse. Except it probably isn't worse - it is simply different. That is often the case.

Each designer is different. Each company manufacturing "high end" audio products is different (well, erm, except the cloners, who prey on the brains of others - because they don't have one of their own).

One designer might be a fan of the sound produced by polystyrene filter capacitors (a crisp sound), whilst others might value the darker sound of simple polyester filter capacitors. Some delight in the brightness of a particular brand of polypropylene capacitor. Another polypropylene capacitor might sound like you're under water. Hmmm, and how many think polypropylene is "the answer"...

And that's just one component out of many. What about the configuration of the circuit? The semiconductors used? And is it really so that a NE5532 is all that bad? (never thought I'd be defending Cambridge Audio...)

We're only scratching the surface here, and the "at least 100 different sound qualities", you may as well strike 100 and replace it with 1000.

And finally. At least here you get the chance to listen and compare.

To be either satisfied with what you have - which is perfectly OK (but some like to Troll the point, but if they feel the need should do it somewhere else).

Or maybe the difference offered here is better for your ears (which you might like to mention in support of this site).

Oh, and before I forget, welcome Paul!



Edited by Graham Slee - 02 Apr 2018 at 2:09pm
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Val S View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Val S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2018 at 5:57pm
Hello Paul,

I am very much a new boy on the block and your quest for something " better" caught my eye.

Some six weeks ago, I joined this forum seeking information as to whether it would be worthwhile adding a phono stage to my very basic set up? I was at the start of a journey of exploration. I was seeking something "better" and I was very curious as to what could be achieved. I like the sound that my system produced, but it was all I had known, therefore why would I not like it?

I have received nothing short of excellent advice and guidance from the members as to what to do, which culminated in me securing the loan of a Special Edition Gram Amp 2. It was felt that this would suit/balance the level of my kit.   

Wow!! I could not believe how much better the music sounded. Initially I was very sceptical, but believe me, I am now a true believer!! I guess, just like everyone else, I have favourite tracks where I thought I could hear and appreciate the full spectrum of sound and instrumentation, but believe me the the difference the Phono stage made was simply incredible. To test it was not just me wanting to believe, I asked my wife acted as a blind listener and she too was impressed. A particular favourite track of her`s , Joan Baez`s , Diamond s and Rust ascended to a whole new level. It was wonderful.

I have no real technical expertise regarding the finer points of HI Fi, but I think I have a good ear and I can safely say that my search for " better " has been answered.

The loan programme is a wonderful facility and I hope you have the opportunity to make use of it and your search for " better" is found.

Welcome to the forum.

Val S

PS. My loan period ends today, so now its a question of what to do next? Turntable upgrade plus a phono stage is on the cards! My journey has begun.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fatmangolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2018 at 8:47pm
Thanks for joining us Paul. I'd suggest borrowing the Reflex M which is available as I have several in the loan cupboard, whereas the Era Gold V and Accession M have waiting lists. Please PM me, I'm away for a week but will be glad to help you when I return.
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paul_barnett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2018 at 9:57am
Thanks for all the replies...

firstly, as I said, this is not a right now project, I plan to wait at least a month before I try anything new. And I'm not trying to 'fix' something - it isnt broken.

But on several previous occasions, I've tried something new, 'just to see', and have been astonished at the improvement over a system that was already very enjoyable - That's the basis for my exploring phono stages, and gsp is at the top of the list because a) people say nice things about them, and b) the loan program is ideal to see if it will be another of those wow moments.

If it is, I'll buy one, otherwise not. (not sure which one, that's the point of borrowing them)

Jon - Thanks, I WILL be in contact in due course...



Paul
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