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Motorboating in Valve Amps

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    Posted: 08 Apr 2008 at 4:21am
As a child in the late 50's and 60's I spent many a happy minute on the boating lake at Peasholme Park.

I remember the sound the little kiddies motor boats made: put, put, put, they went.

When I began my AV career in 1974 I heard that sound again from a valve amp.

A cap had gone faulty allowing the amp to pass a lower frequency than it was designed for - it was obviously on the supply rails too (the supply IS part of the signal "path" after all), and that was feeding back to the input. Also, this amp had negative feedback (I know hi-fi lovers prefer the extra distortion that zero negative feedback amps give them...) and at such a low frequency where the output transformer phase was nearing reversal, the feedback at this low frequency was in fact more positive than negative, adding further to this phenomenon.

Recently I became aware of an abundance of affordable valve amps (OK, sometimes I'm behind the times being a solid-state man...), quite a few being of PRC origin. I managed to find a schematic on the web, and shock! horror! I find they're now DC coupled!

Well, I thought, Motorboating on a stick!

But I read from everywhere I look "heaped praise" from the press. Just shows how dumb (some of) the press is about anything remotely technical - preferring the manufacturer's spin?

DC input coupling is WORSE than that faulty cap I told you about above. Somehow these amps get away with it being fed by the bandwidth limited signal of a "digital" source, but you just need a trigger - a nice bit of real HF like you get from vinyl and ..... put, put, put, put....

In fact, you don't need to put the stylus on the record - the normal hiss that is due to the high analogue gain of a phono stage is enough.

Just one capacitor (per channel) added to the design of these amps in the input just before the first grid bias resistor and bingo! You'd have a stable amp. But no, some idiot got it about that "all capacitors are sh*t" and the lemmings followed.

The big headache I have over this? People who buy such amps keep blaming our phono stages Angry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dvv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2008 at 7:53am
Well Graham, that's the sad story of both press and consumer ignorance in matters technical. The smallest guy always gets blamed.
 
DC coupling can work actually better than AC coupling by doing away with any and all capacitors and inductors in the direct signal line, HOWEVER, one has to take into account the dynamic, not the static operating mode of the amp, whichever it is. We both know manufactrurers prefer the easy way out, static measurements.
 
The problem you mention can appear, on occassion, either as you describe it, or more often as "pumping" or "breathing" with poorly exectuted DC Servo circuits, put there in the first place to get rid of the problems like the one mention. It gets rid of one problem, but introduces another - some help!
 
I know it took me years (admittedly, of on-off work) to develop a DC Servo which is, to the best of my knowledge, bug-free. So, no capacitors, no inductors in the direct signal path. Alternating between an AC and a DC coupled on the same device, one can hear a minute difference in the subjective speed and clarity, so I for one will always cast my vote against any caps and inductors in the direct signal path.
 
On the other hand, I realize that costs me one or more DC Servo circuits, which makes the design more bulky and more costly. It's a trade-off I must accept for the peace of my mind, which many a Chinese manufacturer will not even consider. They don't care about the sound, all they care about is how to make a gazzilion of them, make them cheap and sell off the lot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2008 at 9:30am
Originally posted by dvv dvv wrote:

Alternating between an AC and a DC coupled on the same device, one can hear a minute difference in the subjective speed and clarity...


This is my whole point about capacitor coupling: "one can hear a minute difference"

I believe it is possible to engineer-out that minute difference and the cost of the components to do so is similar to the alternative of DC coupling with servo's. But, as you know about me all too well, I like to be different as well as being openly honest (as far as I dare).

Capacitors are not perfect - I doubt anything we, mankind, have invented is. Electrolytics cannot handle high frequencies - the frequencies needed for faithful reproduction of analogue high frequencies, not so much for us to hear, but for amp stability to prevent interaction of distorted highs with the frequencies we do hear. High frequency electrolytics don't do the complex waveforms of music too well - they are after all designed for switching purposes - they distort a musical signal and give it a "signature" which is also known as "brightness".

In came the bypass capacitor - originally simply a liberal smattering of 0.1uF's as per JLH, but soon a better solution was provided by the high speed digital processing industry, with the understanding of impedance curves - capacitor coupling can now follow that trend and leave much less of a "signature" on the sound - so much less as to be hardly noticeable, if at all noticeable.

The cost? In PCB "real-estate" is not that different, but it's distributed around the board instead of being a circuit in its own right like the servo. In money terms? Hardly any difference either. So has one got any benefit over the other? Maybe just one - removal of the risk of damaging DC voltages under fault conditions.

There is however one major advantage of AC coupling from my point of view, and that is the property of being able to use a single rail supply. Is that a cost reason? It may have a bearing, but no. All audio circuits rely on a thing called "ground" to sink and source dynamic current. Apart from a few isolated cases of valve and J-FET circuits, the vast number of DC coupled solid state designs rely on a transformer centre-tap to both source and sink current. The only way it can do this is to change its rail voltages in relation to this centre tap - think of it as a resistive split. In a resistive split the ground would fluctuate up and down. Now "fix" that ground, and therefore the ends are moving up and down. All ground currents flow in and out of the centre-tap - they are not all going in the same direction at the same time. Clearly to overcome this (if it can be overcome) a very low secondary winding impedance is required, and this gives rise to the practice of using massive transformers - a sledgehammer to crack a nut - and the preoccupation of bigger and bigger power supplies that "improve the sound".

This single fact has led the bigger-is-better/heavier is better mentality of the hi-fi industry to the point that most people who don't understand the real reasons, feel that a 1 inch thick front panel must improve their listening. Crazy isn't it?

DC coupling is hailed as being the fix-all to the extent that many simply won't try any other solution. But worse than that, those who only half understand electronics but yet manage to become manufacturers held in high esteem, change AC coupling to DC coupling in such as valve amp inputs without recognising the consequences.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dvv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2008 at 4:28pm
Well, divided we stand now, as we have stood all these years on this matter. To me, single rail operation is something I did last in an audio circuit, oh, must be like 20 odd years ago; today, I use single rails for such high intelligence work as relay switching, etc. I am a firm believer in split, or dual ("+" and "-") rails.
 
To ruin your day completely, I must also point out that you are not only not different in that respect, but are in fact a fully uniformed UK designer. As are J. Linsley-Hood (mostly), as were people like Radford, Baxendell, Walker, Sugden, etc. It's a very British thing, just like Yorkshire pudding. LOLLOLLOL
 
But, mind you, I am decidely NOT saying single rail operation cannot sound good; far from it, it can, I know it can, and I acknowledge it to be so. Just as ANY technology, be it tube, germanium, silicon, MOS, IGBT, etc can sound good if done properly.
 
As for caps, well, just do what the Japenese audio buffs have been doing since the early 70-ies. Say you need a 2 uF value ate the input, probably the most critical place of all; rather than use any one technology, which no matter how advances will have its sonic signature, use in parallel three 680 nF cap, made of polypropylene, polustyrene and policrabonate. Thus, you avoid problems with any one single technology and hopefully gain the benefits of all. For example, polypropylene filters well high on up, but is not particularly fast; polycarbonate is not such a good filter, but is probably the fastest available cap on the planet, getting them at 1,000 V/uS is no problem at all.
 
Economically, yes, they will demand more real estate area on the PCB, but financially, they more often than not cost less to far less than exotic single material makes. Having tried this in the past, and still using it today when I must, I can only say that a good combination of Wima, Siemens and/or Plessey products will do the job brilliantly.
 
Hopefully, we are not about to embark on a discussion of power supply influence on the sound - blimey, we both know power supplies have a hell of a lot to do with the resultant sound quality. I agree there is much fad, fashion and imbecility in the audio industry regarding power supplies, but in my view, nothing beats a fully discrete power supply simply because you can dimesnion it exactly to your needs, maintaining the good design practice of installing a reserve over the worst case demand of 25...33%, just to be on the safe side.
 
On a sideline, lest someone should have an idea that in my view British cooking should be nuked, this is not so. There are things to eat and drink in Britain which are simply not available anywhere else to the best of my knowledge and from as many attempts as I could manage, and I manage 250 lbs so far (a dilligent student, I am!). NOBODY makes cider like the Brits, and trust me, I tried any I could my hands on; French efforts are pathetic, someone should put them out of their misery. NOBODY makes a liver and kidney pie like the Brits, nobody - not that I'd turn down Lyon's Maid apricot or apple pie either, mind you. Only the Germans and Czechs come close, but not quite up to a British light ale; I'll take a pint of Courage anytime, anywhere. And Guiness is indeed special.


Edited by dvv - 14 Apr 2008 at 4:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2008 at 6:33pm
Originally posted by dvv dvv wrote:

Well, divided we stand now...


Never! But we can agree on peaceful coexistence?


Originally posted by dvv dvv wrote:

On a sideline, lest someone should have an idea that in my view British cooking should be nuked, this is not so. There are things to eat and drink in Britain which are simply not available anywhere else to the best of my knowledge and from as many attempts as I could manage, and I manage 250 lbs so far (a dilligent student, I am!). NOBODY makes cider like the Brits, and trust me, I tried any I could my hands on; French efforts are pathetic, someone should put them out of their misery. NOBODY makes a liver and kidney pie like the Brits, nobody - not that I'd turn down Lyon's Maid apricot or apple pie either, mind you. Only the Germans and Czechs come close, but not quite up to a British light ale; I'll take a pint of Courage anytime, anywhere. And Guiness is indeed special.


Ah! The good old days...

Things have changed just a bit here in the UK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dvv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2008 at 8:00pm
Originally posted by Graham Slee Graham Slee wrote:

Never! But we can agree on peaceful coexistence?
 
Well, that's how we got on so far, no sense in changing horses in mid-race, right? Tongue
 
You know my view - ANY technology can be made to produce excellent results or to sound awful. Much of it all is simply personal preference.


Quote Ah! The good old days...

Things have changed just a bit here in the UK
 
I shudder to think, somehow I've always regarded Britain as an isle of sane tradition, but then, the last time I set foot on British soil was in 1986 ... and even then, traces of American were all too visible ... then came Tony ... oh, bloody hell!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2008 at 10:53pm
Originally posted by dvv dvv wrote:

...somehow I've always regarded Britain as an isle of sane tradition...


It was until we squandered our inheritance...
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