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Balanced connections

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Ash View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2021 at 8:38pm
I agree with low level signals over long distances. That really hits the nail on the head.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2021 at 11:29am
I'm with Doug Self on absolute phase. He states that for most frequencies, there is no detectable difference, but with one exception. I don't want to misquote him, so this is my interpretation.

Any very-low-frequency single "thud" creates a pressure wave, which is first outgoing, its decay - which is almost as loud - starting at the almost as instantaneous pressure "suck back." The successive vibrations could be in either direction as our hearing cannot discern direction on repetitive back-forth air movements.

He says that the original "thud" would have been face-on to the microphone capsule and suggests the only instrument recorded that way is a kick drum. He then discusses possible phase reversals that might occur in the recording chain, especially as the sort of music featuring a kick drum is quite possibly rock and/or  "commercial" and might have been misphased in the wiring somewhere due to the number of recording stages.

For the sake of the occasional fleeting "thud", the loudspeakers would have to be capable of creating the pressure wave, and the volume would need to be set pretty high to make a reasonable facsimile of the pressure wave. Even then, the listening room acoustics might "mangle" the pressure wave.

However, he notes that the purists argue so much about this, and the "average" customer believes them that it is best to design for absolute phase, even if that is at the cost of adding complication.

So, unless we're equipped to listen for that ephemeral "thud," what else could make us sensitive to phase? It cannot be imagined because sensible reviewers can detect a difference when swapping phases - something I discussed at length with Scott Faller. I, too, was able sometimes to notice a difference.

What I found is something that makes sense, and that is the difference between inverting and non-inverting stages. Inverting stages do not suffer common-mode distortion! Therefore, I surmise that absolute single-sided phase might not sound as good as a mixture of inverting and non-inverting as found in balanced send and receive circuits.

At that point, I decided to do an experiment, which was to connect an antiphase output to an antiphase input - single-sided - and compare it with both a fully balanced connection and a phase to phase single-sided connection.

I also "recruited" a few customers to try an R3 interconnect between their Majestic and Proprius pair. They might remember?

To my ears, the antiphase to antiphase connection sounded best, and that can be substantiated objectively because both use inverting send and receive circuits. These exhibit no common-mode distortion. The worst was the phase to phase connection, and from an objective viewpoint, it could be substantiated because non-inverting stages suffer common-mode distortion. The balanced connection was a little better than phase to phase, but antiphase to antiphase was best.

This was further substantiated because although the receiving circuit - in the Proprius - is an all-inverting series input, the non-inverting input passes both, and the inverting input passes only once.

What has this to do with the absolute phase of the music? Nothing!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2021 at 7:22pm

Proprius - 1.5m Lautus-R3, anti-phase to anti-phase, switched mode power supplies

Solo Ultra Linear - 0.6m CuSat50, phase to phase, PSU1 linear supply

Both combinations sounded pretty much the same but Proprius had more power available and may have even sounded slightly better if I had to choose a winner.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fatmangolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2021 at 8:40pm
Thanks Graham. I have some true balanced sources like microphones but know the subsequent preamp electronics are often a balanced receiver then unbalanced circuits followed by the generation of a balanced output. Whether that is transformers or extra stages they add something else to the sound as Ash said and that can be bypassed. I still have my R3 cables just like Ash but in my setup I slightly prefer the balanced cables.

Yes I agree about absolute phase but respect some are very committed to getting the "polarity" right saying the sound is wrong otherwise. In live music the effect of out of phase amplified sound is more obvious as larger drums sound thin (the 'thud' is cancelled out) and it can reduce feedback on some acoustic guitars as I found. Hi-fi playback of studio recordings is harder to rationalise, especially when you think of the wavelengths involved in the 'thud' compared to normal room dimensions. That said I think turning off the rumble filter helps, as it brings phase delay to audio frequencies is much as altering amplitude of sub-bass.

Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2021 at 9:32pm
I had been considering a very short Libran between Majestic and Proprius for a while, to replace my 1.5m Lautus-R3. I had been weighing up the pros and cons and was thinking along the lines of what Graham just said, that the inclusion of the regular phase alongside the inverted phase might not actually improve things compared to the inverted phase alone. Depending on the application, I was thinking that the presence of the regular phase could introduce more distortion than the phase/anti-phase pairing would remove, thus not actually being a superior connection in certain circumstances. Perhaps the only connection that might beat the Lautus-R3 is a very very short CuSat50-R3, without the ferrites, like Jon had. If I were to house the Majestic and Proprius close together in a sealed metal box, I would probably go CuSat50-R3.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fatmangolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2021 at 5:44pm
I still have the 0.6m R3 Cusats if you would like to buy them second hand, Ash?

It is five vears ago so I had forgotten the details of the R3 cable wiring beyond the Ring to XLR pin 3. I checked whether the 2 or live pin on the R3 cable's XLR plug is grounded but it isn't. So I just need to unsolder (and heatshrink) the live signal wire from XLR pin 2 on my balanced cables to listen to the 'R3' option. I shall try it again when time permits and share any revelations.

Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2021 at 8:00pm
Thanks for the offer Jon but if I go for the CuSat50-R3, it would be shorter than 0.6m, maybe a third of that length, down to 20cm. Still not decided whether it is worthwhile just for tidier cabling. I would have to really weigh up the pros and cons vs the Lautus-R3. Yeah, the R3 connectivity is just a single-ended interconnect that can only be used between balanced output and balanced input.
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