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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patientot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2021 at 10:34pm
Originally posted by Graham Slee Graham Slee wrote:



Section 7.07 also derives an input stage slew rate formula, which is 0.3 x Ft, and using a common low noise opamp for phono stage use, the AD797, we find it's stable Ft is 30MHz. It's input slew rate must therefore be 0.3 x 30 = 9V/uS. It is advertised as 20V/uS, but that is its output slew rate. It is obvious therefore that it has slew rate enhancement, and that never sounds good, because to do it, the input stage must clip.


Interesting stuff. There is a DIY design making the rounds for awhile now using the AD797. Some tests show noise is very low but I wonder about the disadvantages and there they are. Might look good on paper with low noise specs but all records have noise and will never be able to meet those S/N and THD specs anyway AFAIK. 
SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2021 at 10:39am
Working freelance for a couple of years with a hi-fi manufacturer after the radio broadcast audio disciplines, I saw the tendency to dabble in the "exotic." Today I call it virtue signaling, a kind of Twitteresque "look at me - look at what I'm using!"

If the pins are in the right place, you can just about get away with plugging-in any op-amp, and it'll make some sound. The way I see forum op-amp choice is about the op-amp's ability to sock it to them. It reminds me of the dawn of colour TV and the migraine headaches from watching such exaggerated colour - the colours turned up full.

It's where Hi-Fi departs from high fidelity, but Hi-Fi trips off the tongue - simpleton language - but I use it to try and attract and convert the lost. Like setting the colours on a colour TV to something more natural, and then making it more real.

Input slew-rate is the reality. Output slew-rate exceeding input slew-rate is artificial, and an enhancement originally meant for large-signal analogue processing, not in high fidelity audio! But, if the market's there, exploit it, and it would seem that the chip manufacturers added the "message" to their datasheets.

It is hysterisis. Push the switch so far, and the spring snaps it into place. It's seen in the bode plots, where the single-pole stability is traded to push the open-loop gain at the expense of overshoot but then revert to bringing it to unity with just enough phase margin to spare.

The technique is called "feedforward," where the single stability pole is delayed. Excess phase comes in while the amp still has gain (40dB on the 797), falling nearer to 40dB per decade than the stability assured 20dB per decade. Then, just before complete instability ensues, late compensation gets applied to prevent it "crash landing." The 797 phase plot makes it obvious - the phase recovers and kicks out before falling away again. The bend in the gain plot coincides. What more do these people need? I think the answer is they didn't go that far and just read the headlines.

I cover a similar application in my '70s amp ramblings. It can have good use in bringing down high-frequency THD because there's more negative feedback available, but at what cost? One cost is ringing and with it, harshness. The NE5532 (and similar versions) has this "guilt," but to a lesser degree.

If we want high fidelity, we should stick to physics's applicable laws and work inside them. It means understanding what we're working with, rather than just plucking some half-baked idea and trying to persuade everybody Dylan fashion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2021 at 7:50am
The only way to increase the slew-rate is at the input.

I can see how the CD-era "designer" could have thought - anything above 20kHz is inaudible - but the highs in analogue aren't the noise dumping-ground as in the red book. Screw around with analogue HF, and it will bite you!

God forbid, but if we ever ended up in a Soviet system, I'd hope the authorities make them design discrete power amplifiers before allowing them near op-amps.

The op-amp is a power amp in miniature. Do with a power-amp what I see done with op-amps, and you don't even get a chance of it living past switch-on! Dry sound? Are your power supply caps getting warm? What's next - Blackgates?

What you have to dig, brother is bandwidth with single-pole compensation, respect stability, and that 0.3Ft is all you're ever going to get in a low-noise world. The AD797, like the LM318, and all that follow in their footsteps, thought up cunning ways to take noise down and pump-up slew-rate.

You might be under the mistaken impression that these ICs only live under the hoods of phono stages and headphone amps - think again! They're used everywhere the opportunist manufacturer wants - I mean, look, man, it's so low noise!

Screw low noise! Stop crippling music!

Taking 0.3Ft, it begs a multiplier to give a larger result. How about if we added "m" to make it 0.3mFt? Where can we find "m"?

"m" can only exist if the linear portion of input latitude is increased. The joined emitters limit us to 42mV. What if we could make that 420mV? "m" would be 10.

If we take what can be achieved by single-pole compensation, say, a bandwidth of 4MHz, the 0.3Ft slew-rate is 0.3 x 4 = 1.2V/uS.

Multiplied by an "m" of 10, we obtain 12V/uS. And if multiplied by 20, we get 24V/uS. Isn't that great?

It's done by placing a resistor in each emitter leg such that the gm of the stage gets reduced by the value of "m." It has downsides - one being that open-loop gain has been reduced (you won't get as much negative feedback). The other is that noise increases. The reason that noise increases is because resistors "contain" noise at the rate of 4nV per /Hz per 1,000 ohms.

However, it has another benefit, not requiring such a considerable value of compensation capacitance. Therefore, if the input signal strays even further than the x10 or x20 we gave it, the overload has a much gentler time.

The technique is called "emitter degeneration."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2021 at 3:04pm
Before moving on from the "low-noise wide-bandwidth" op-amps, just a bit more enlightenment regarding the NE5532 (which has a startling resemblance to a NE5534, but the NE5533 is its dual version).

Below is the dead giveaway.

NE5532 GBW curves

A stable single-pole does not roll-off from 1kHz to 10MHz in 100dB. It either rolls-of from 100Hz to 10MHz or from 1kHz to 100MHz.

20dB/decade is 100dB/5 decades, and 5 decades up from 1kHz is 100MHz. The only way it can go from 1kHz to 10MHz is by putting in a steeper step, just like the AD797. The above images (figure 2) from the NE5532 datasheet makes it look like somebody was trying to cheat. Figure 3 is effectively the same graph, and if printed-off and annotated with pencil and ruler, sketching through the curve ends, you should find a very similar gain "bode" curve to the AD797.

The significant difference is in the Ft - the frequency which transitions unity gain (0dB). The NE5532 does it gracefully, but the AD797 needs Rs* doctoring. The difference is stability and brought stable by Rs*; the AD797 is no better on noise than a NE5532.

The signal does not cause instability. There won't be any signal at 10MHz or anywhere near. There is, however, stimulus, and always will be, unless switched off. The unstable op-amp can be triggered into oscillation by just about anything. Oscillators make their own signals!

It is no wonder that a NE5532 can make a good phono stage, provided its real slew-rate is used to calculate its active EQ capacitance. Now, what phono stage could that have been?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2021 at 3:20am
The big problem with active stages revolves around misunderstanding slew-rate and output current.

Most op-amps oscillate into little more than 100pF and need in-loop or out-of-loop output series resistance.

Often you'll see the op-amp driving the EQ capacitors directly. The divider resistor to ground from the feedback pin might be seen as the equivalent of this series resistance, but the phase is different at that end.

The craze for zero output resistance in op-amps for headphone amps might now look a bit stupid? Headphone cables might have up to 600pF of capacitance. Those people are "enjoying" high-frequency instability, in which case, op-amp "rolling" gives a different type of instability.

One type of op-amp which can withstand capacitive loads is the bootstrapped output stage type. This type of bootstrap is nothing like the "pull-up" bootstrap of an ac-coupled power amp. It senses load capacitance and reduces bandwidth to bring it back into stable operation. It is a kind of frequency compensation, but outside the gain stage.

However, that in itself cannot prevent oscillation. Still, to avoid using a "Miller" capacitor in the VAS stage, it uses emitter degeneration to reduce the excess phase contribution by the input stage.

AD826 circuit

This is the innards of one channel of an AD826 op-amp, and instead of the input emitters being directly joined, they have series resistors. The series resistors reduce the transconductance (gm) and increase input latitude.

The slew-rate is a staggering 350V/uS. By 0.3Ft, with a bandwidth of 50MHz, it should be only 15V/uS but is 23 times higher due to the emitter degeneration resistors' size.

It tends to suggest that the input can take 1 volt before overload. That is the voltage often found in video, and that's what the op-amp is designed for. However, it is an op-amp, so that it will work down to DC, and as such, it works for audio frequencies.

What size of "C2" can it drive? With 50mA output current and by I/SR, we obtain 143pF. That is a shame, but if we can add sufficient output series resistance, we could get it to work. Placing nearly 1k in series with the high-frequency pole capacitor, it "flys" if we can accept that the RIAA curve isn't necessary at, say, 50kHz.

It was used in the original Era Gold, which might give you a clue as to how it sounds. Although the S/N was acceptable to the ear, it wasn't acceptable on paper and turned quite a few prospective customers away. I'm sure I'd still be using it to this day if it didn't have a popcorn-noise problem. Each device was tested by AD for its purpose as a video amp, and at such frequencies, that noise is not apparent.

We had 50% fails-on-test, and to continue making the Era Gold and Jazz Club, I had to redesign it in a way that didn't change the sound. To do that, you have to understand op-amps.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2021 at 9:52am
Taking another look at the AD826 (AD817) schematic, the differential VAS and complementing Wilson mirrors have no capacitive compensation. Transistor capacitance is due to base width, and therefore, the VAS, if not the IPS, must have had relatively narrow bases. Any process contamination and popcorn noise would be inevitable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2021 at 1:23am
Rant Warning!

Did you watch Tim Peake's mission to the ISS? When it came to docking, it looked like there was a problem, then on flicked the coloured bars on the TV screen. A few moments later, the picture came back, showing the astronauts entering the ISS.

What you didn't see, is what's known as a "proprietary moment."

To the outsider audio can be a bit like that. Let me rephrase that - to an outsider with a serious desire to learn, audio can be a bit like that.

Everything can look oh so snobbish, but out of sight, something rather vulgar might be going on. A good example is the preamp of a dynamic mic. Oh yes you know, it's phantom powered, such a fine method of placing a DC voltage on the balanced inputs - just look at the network - look at the high tech...

Tucked away in the mic body is a single transistor preamp (or used to be). What? Trust that quality of signal to such a horrible-horrible single transistor. Don't they know such-and-such superstar will be using the mic?

By now, possibly a handful of old timers who visit my posts (hi friends!), will be getting the gist. Others might be thinking of sending me their nephew's college textbooks on how to design basic audio circuitry - it has happened - such people are beyond salvation but are easily offended by the Yorkshire pit language reply!

"How can it be that Yorkie's can learn things - surely all Northerners are dumb?"

Well, dear bigot, that might be why it took me 57 years to learn what I know.

End of rant.
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