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Graham Slee View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2021 at 8:54am
Meanwhile, at "new Babel," this they began to do...

They began to harmonize the World's voltages. The elephant in the room was Britain. Continental Europe had 220V, and Britain must be brought into line, but faced with replacing every substation transformer in the land, Britain refused.

Having caused a log-jam in the law-making machinery, they did what they always do - it was fudged. It was decided to "adjust" by statutory instrument all voltages in the EU to 230V.

The voltages in continental Europe remained at 220V, and the voltages in Britain remained at 240V, but the "230V adjustment" included an "accuracy annex," which allowed 230V the greater latitude of +/-10%.

In olden times the latitude was set to the achievable tolerance, which was +/-6%, and you could buy transformers with taps for 220V or 240V. Now it's 230V, period.

Therefore the off-the-peg transformer primary is rated for 230V, but as there is no such rated supply voltage, we must design for a supply voltage that may be 207V, or it may be 253V or anything in between.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2021 at 10:00am
Deciding on the transformer, part 1

When boiled down, my last post sets upper and lower extremes of what we might expect.

Using a 230V transformer in GB, the voltage might be 10% up, but if you were reading this sur le continent, it might dip 10% down.

Taking 253 and dividing it by 207, we get 1.22, which means +/-10% is +22% if we design for the worst possible case.

We have to tighten this design and establish the lowest AC voltage that keeps the 7824 in regulation.

Using a 4700uF smoother, we can accept a minimum of 22V AC. Using a 10,000uF smoother, we can accept a minimum of 21V AC.

Those are the secondary voltages we must have at 207V mains input. If not, a continental user on a cold dark winter night might find ripple on the 7824 output.

Working upwards from 207V to 230V, we find we must multiply by 1.11111 (not 1.1, as the 10% latitude would suggest).

22V thus becomes 24.4V, and 21V thus becomes 23.3V.

We can obtain a 24V transformer off the peg, so it looks like we have to use the 10,000uF smoother. We have established the conditions for 207V use.

There is a further spanner to throw into the workings, transformer regulation. That is the percentage over-voltage of the transformer outputs, with no-load. Should the 7824 input exceed 40VDC, it will probably blow.

Low wattage (low VA) transformers have poor regulation, but as we want to achieve 1-amp, the transformer we choose isn't going to be amongst the lowest wattages - this is what we now must look at.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2021 at 11:40am
Deciding on the transformer, part 2

In voltage, you can relate RMS to Peak (or DC) by √■ 2 and do the inverse using √■ 2 = χ-¹

Now you learned it on the calculator; we can start thinking of it as √2 and 1/√2 (it's easier for me to explain).

With current, there is no equivalent authoritative ratio (maybe they've done one since?). There is, however, a rule of thumb ratio, which happens to coincide with the Fibonacci ratio. The important thing about it is it works!

There are no calculator keys for the current ratio, so you'll have to memorise it. IAC to IDC = 0.62; IDC to IAC = 1.62.

If you want 1-amp DC, you will require 1.62-amps AC.

In the last post, the transformer secondary voltage was decided at 24V. If we multiply that by the AC amps, we get 24 x 1.62 ≈ 39.

39 is the required power, but modern convention says we must call it VA and not watts, which is how we used to think of it.

Looking in the RS online catalogue, the nearest VA rating is 50VA for an E-I laminated clamp mount transformer. It costs £23.66 including VAT. There is a toroidal transformer available for £62.65.

If the power supply is to live in its own cabinet, I can see no reason for a toroidal transformer, so I would choose the laminated one and save almost £40.

My findings from my 1970s design indulgence blog regarding circulating currents in paralleled secondaries sway my choice to a dual 12V output, which I can wire in series for the required 24V.

Looking at the RS page: https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/chassis-mounting-transformers/0504672/, we can click on the datasheet link and find the information for part number 504672.

It's a lot bigger than the 12VA transformer of the "teaser circuit" on page 1, and it won't fit in a PSU1 case, but we decided we wanted 1-amp.

The datasheet shows a no-load voltage of 13.3V and 13.3/12 ≈ 1.11 - it has 11% regulation. We can now work out the maximum input voltage the 7824 will contend with.

The maximum mains voltage allowable in the GB is 253V, 230V plus 10%. It used to be 240V plus 6%, and it still is! Therefore the maximum mains voltage is 255V.

255/230 ≈ 1.11. We also have 11% regulation (for when the power supply is left on with no load), and so 1.11 x 1.11 ≈ 1.23. Therefore the 24V AC can go as high as 29.5V AC.

Let's see what it could be after the rectifier. We first remove the "entry-fee" of two diode-drops, but this is on no-load, and the diodes only need to pass quiescent current for the 7824 and the discharge resistor R1. Assuming we use regular silicon rectifier diodes, the diode-drops will be 0.6V. We take way 1.2V from the 29.5V and are left with 28.3V AC.

We have to take the peak voltage, which we do by multiplying 28.3V by √2.

The answer is 40.05V DC.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sylvain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2021 at 2:06pm
Deciding on the transformer, part 1
Deciding on the transformer, part 2

Thank You very much for the structure ........paragraphing and sequencing the work in a logic rationale  BUT       it will take 24 hours and 3 readings to digest each paragraph......BUT GOOD STUFF 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ashleip Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2021 at 5:22pm
Another idiot question incoming (and might also be answered in your 70s page?)

The reason you'd want to avoid an EI transformer for a PSU mounted within the amplifier would be to avoid electromagnetic fields inducing mains hum on the input signal. Presumably though, the same magnitude of mains hum will be induced on the DC output of the PSU as would be on an incoming audio signal (assuming same location of audio / DC cables). 

Is it right that this magnitude of mains hum induced in DC signal is negligible because it is insignificant in relation to the 24V output, whereas this same magnitude on a phono signal (e.g.7mV) is significant? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2021 at 10:21pm
Well, it's true that wire has inductance, and laying a wire in an AC magnetic field, you'll get some of that AC on it. In fact, if you were to run the signal input parallel to a mains wire, it should pick that up too.

In fact, if you put any transformer in a loop of wire, the loop will pick that up. Changing the ground wiring (yes, the ground) on the '70s project recently, so it didn't encircle the transformer (just one turn), the S/N improved by 6dB (the noise halved). Might you have noticed the diagram shows a round transformer?

The most effective means of coupling "hum" is to mimic a transformer. At least put it into a loop. Windings in a loop are very effective at picking up hum. It's a bit similar to an induction loop hearing system but in reverse. Instead of a hearing aid coil, you might use a magnetic cartridge. You could sit that inside an inductive loop, such as a house mains wiring.

You might even sacrifice on the altar - I mean, put the turntable on the top shelf of the hi-fi rack right above a power amp. Some people even arrange the DECT phone right next to it. Others might have a lighting dimmer switch on the wall behind it.

Heck no! You need a toroidal transformer, dude! Listen to the marketing; it's much safer than me.Wink

(edited to include emoticon)



Edited by Graham Slee - 21 Jan 2021 at 10:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sylvain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2021 at 8:36am
Changing the ground wiring (yes, the ground) on the '70s project recently, so it didn't encircle the transformer (just one turn), the S/N improved by 6dB (the noise halved). Might you have noticed the diagram shows a round transformer?

hum!!!!!!!

So is the solution in 'placement' and ''lay out''of wires and beware of the magnetic field of Torioidal !!!!!and looping power leads ...
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