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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ashleip Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2021 at 9:15am
Aaah - so am I right in saying that by spec'ing two capacitors in parallel you reduce the likelihood of the combined capacitance being close to the limit of the stated tolerance in comparison to if you only had a single capacitor then?

Just catching up on the last few posts and trying to understand how this would change if the design parameters changed. You say 40.05 is fine and that we should have faith in the grid - it's unlikely that this situation would actually occur. At what point would we question our faith? Say we are designing for 250mA, that means we need a VA >= 9.72 (1.62 x 24 x 0.25). So we could use a 12VA, 1 x 230 / 2 x 12V transformer from the same range as that you posted. On the spec sheet this transformer has a slightly higher no load voltage of 13.6V. This means that (24 x 1.11 x 13.6/12-1.2) x sqrt(2) = 41V. Would we still put faith in the grid in this instance, even with this slightly higher exceedance? (I think the mains voltage would need to be >249V to exceed 40V at the 7824 so I'd be inclined to say yes we should probably still have faith, but I have no experience to base that on!)

As you say there is a lot more to the PSU design than meets the eye! Thanks for all the info and help so far!


Edited by Ashleip - 26 Jan 2021 at 9:16am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2021 at 12:04pm
My last post was necessary to understand the manipulation of the smoother capacitance. It is also essential to know where the charge is "held."

If current is the flow of charges around a circuit, then that current must return to where the charge is kept (Kirchhoff conservation laws).

The main charge is kept in the smoother. We can use one capacitor or use any number in parallel to make up the value determined by the formula.

To ensure the voltage to the 7824 remains within its input range for all grid supply voltages, we determined a maximum ripple voltage of 1-volt.

C = IT/V

= 1(amp) x 0.01(sec) / 1(volt) = 0.01 Farad (which is 10,000 uF)

But what if we don't have a 10,000uF capacitor? Say we have two 4700uF capacitors we can put in parallel, making 9400uF. Will that suffice?

Using the rearranged formula

V = IT/C

= 1(amp) x 0.01(sec) / 0.0094(Farads) = 1.064 volts

Will 0.064 volts make that much a difference?

Let me answer that question by stating that electrolytic can capacitors (which are the only type having the capacitance we require) have tolerance of +/-20%.

It is possible (although not very likely) that a 10,000uF capacitor could be 8,000uF.

Let's run that through our formula.

V= IT/C

= 1(amp) x 0.01(sec) / 0.008(Farads) = 1.25 volts

Likewise, 9400uF would become 7520uF, and the ripple voltage 1.33V.

Based on discussions so far, we might see sufficient latitude and trust in hope by using two 4700uF capacitors that both can't be -20%, or we could wish to reach perfection. Being pragmatic, will we need precisely 1 amp output? And if not, we can risk a third of a volt on a "brown-out" voltage of 207V on a 220V supply grid. If the grid voltage is 240V, there is no need to worry.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sylvain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2021 at 9:53am
Yes  Thank you for consideration to the 'non technical laymen'' and the step by step  structure .....enthusiast like me will benefit in their development and understanding.....but ' bite size'' at a time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2021 at 8:23pm
The non-technical layman understands electricity due to it being a greater part of modern living.

He understands Voltage that, in most cases, it appears between two points. The live and neutral of a mains plug and the pointed end and the blunt end of a battery are two examples.

In a mains derived DC power supply, both types of electricity exist. The input is from the live and neutral of a mains plug. The output mimics that of a battery.

A battery contains charge, and in use, the charge flows in the circuit it powers, and that flow is called current.

As the charge is consumed, the current flow diminishes, and eventually, all the charge has gone.

The smoother or reservoir capacitor of a mains derived DC power supply acts similarly to a battery. It doesn't have the long term charge of a battery. Instead, a rectifier charges it, and the load discharges it. The rectifier is constantly applying charge, and the load is continuously discharging it.

ripple voltage
(image copied from Morgan Jones)


The transformed and rectified waveform is like a series of upward going loops. The top of each loop is the peak value of the AC voltage.

VDC = √2 x Vac

The charge is used up in current flow in the circuit powered by the power supply.

The smoother capacitor voltage decays, only to be met by the next loop. These loops are 0.01 seconds apart.

Rather than the DC voltage being a straight line over time, it ventures up and down by an amount called ripple voltage.

The ripple voltage is directly related to the current being drawn from the power supply. If we don't draw any current, then this DC voltage is a straight line over time, but as soon as we draw current, the Voltage starts to ripple.

The letter used for charge is Q, and it stands for coulombs. Charge is related to Capacitance (the storage of charge) and Voltage.

Q = CV

Charge is used up by current draw over time, so

Q = IT  (I stands for current in amps, T stands for time in seconds)

Therefore Q is related to both, so

Q = CV = IT

If we want to find Capacitance and know what ripple voltage is acceptable and the current the load draws, we also understand that the rectified waveform repeats every 0.01 seconds. We can use

CV = IT

Rearranging it to obtain C on its own involves dividing both sides of the equation by V.

The V's of CV/V cancel to become C. On the other side, we have IT/V.

C = IT/V

If we want to know the ripple voltage, then we divide both sides by C

V = IT/C

So now, even the layman should have a better idea of designing power supplies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2021 at 7:50pm
If we put a forward-biased diode just before the 7824 input, the off-load voltage drop is roughly 0.6V, and that adds 1.5% into the "component tolerance pool." It might still reach 40V, but we've made extra allowances for inaccuracies, which inevitably creep in everywhere.

We also have to put some faith in the electricity grid.

The datasheet doesn't tell us the conditions of the absolute maximum voltage, whether it's on-load or off-load. If it said on-load, then we know that off-load, the input voltage will be higher. Unfortunately, it doesn't say.

The datasheet also notes, "Absolute maximum ratings are those values beyond which damage to the device may occur. Functional operation under these conditions is not implied." So, it says not implied, so better not conjecture.

At the low mains voltage end, we had about 0.7V going spare, plus the 26.5V minimum 7824 input. Theoretically, the 7824 input can go as low as 26V, but take a look at the output tolerances on any 7824 datasheet. Every little helps!

The diode has made it so the rectifier circuit centres-up with the 7824 input range for all expected grid conditions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2021 at 10:19am
A diode is NOT a stupid idea. (Thumbs Up)


Edited by Graham Slee - 22 Jan 2021 at 10:20am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2021 at 9:48am
The point was 40.05 volts.

The sustaining voltage - the absolute maximum on the datasheet for the 7824 voltage regulator, is stated as being 40V DC.

We're supposed to learn the difficulty in designing a mains power supply, having a regulated output, for operation on all 230V voltages.

I started this topic because of the number of members who have asked me about a PSU1 in kit form. Then there is another group who wonder if a PSU1 can be used to power other items, and if not, what can I do to assist them?

Rather than pushing all the bits into a bag and selling it as a kit - a lethal instrument due to its mains connection - perhaps some education into the hows and whys might result in something the DIY'er can make better use of.

So, back to the 40.05 volts calculated earlier. That is the maximum DC input on the voltage regulator we can squeeze it down to for a mains supply at the top of the specified grid voltage range while ensuring it doesn't drop out of regulation at the bottom of the specified grid voltage range.

The crucial questions here should be about how we can ensure reliability. The reader could be in some European country where the mains power demands take the voltage right down or somewhere in industrial England where a large substation now supplies a smaller domestic demand. The latter can be subjected to 255V AC.

The DIY enthusiast cannot easily obtain a transformer of the exact voltage required (which is around 23V) and must work with what is available.

We should be asking, will 40.05V damage a 7824 voltage regulator?
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