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Headphones sound harsh with Reflex-M, suggestions?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DT999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2020 at 10:30pm
Hi Graham,

firstly can I say thank you for your comprehensive reply; to me it speaks volumes when the designer and manufacturer of a product takes the time to answer questions on a forum.

Unfortunately I am not that technical when it comes to understanding electronics, however I think I get the gist of what you are saying.

Both my headphones are low impedance (Oppo PM-3 is 26 Ohms, AGK K550 is 36 Ohms); I guess being more modern closed back types they are designed to work with a portable source such as a tablet or smart phone; hence the more prominent harshness. 

I do only listen through headphones through necessity and need them to be closed back; there may be other higher impedance quality headphones that might be better suited.

However, I get the impression that it is my headphone amp that might be the issue. As this does not seem to manifest itself when using my other phono stage, I am surmising it is designed and built differently to the Reflex and where the grounds meet. 

Do you think this would be addressed with a different headphone amp? Specifically I presume you have designed your headphone amps to match and complement the design of your phono stages.

thanks again
Derek




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2020 at 2:02pm
In addition to the above, and from a technical point of view, the grounding regime of a headphone amplifier can have undesirable effects depending on the headphones being used. In particular, the long-forgotten "stereo-loop distortion" which plagues op-amp headphone amplifiers which use separate chips. This causes annoying asymmetrical distortion in the input grounds, but can be cured by the designer if power amplifier techniques are used.

And, I did note that everything is alright with your speaker amp.

Most of us designers fall into the trap of looking at a headphone amp as a preamp, simply because that was the original intention of headphones (back when Noah was a lad). However, things change, and rather than headphones being high impedance, they can range from 5 ohms to 2000 ohms, for what reason, I do not know.

A high impedance headphone will not exhibit the same harshness as a low impedance headphone should there be a stereo-loop in the ground distribution.

The above might well be the reason for the mania for balanced headphone outputs, which might effect a "half cure."

One might ask, then why only with a particular phono stage? The answer to that is where the stereo grounds meet. If they meet at the output, which is incidentally wrong, then the possibility is that any stereo-loop distortion is minimised, because it is referenced to a larger signal. If the stereo grounds meet at the input, as on the Reflex and all our phono stages (the correct way), then it is referenced to a much smaller signal. Therefore the stereo-loop distortion becomes more prominent.

Your speaker amp, simply because it is much more current hungry, and grounding errors exhibit themselves more aggressively, and as such the designer understands the grounding much better, will be grounded correctly such that the source ground will be expected to be at the input of whatever that source is.



Another reason for a different phono preamp enabling lower stereo-loop distortion would be its use of tree-trunk grounding, which, for good reason, the Reflex doesn't do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2020 at 1:27pm
Unfortunately, the answer is quite technical, and can only be solved by those who make headphone amplifiers.

All I can say is that my early attempts at headphone amplifiers (20 plus years ago) sounded harsh using a vinyl source - admittedly I always used a phono preamp of my own making - but some of them were generic designs one can find nowadays on the internet.

I would always choose a specialist manufacturer than one "who also makes" ;-)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DT999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2020 at 9:59am
I should try and be a bit clearer by what I mean when I say harsh. It is not that the sound is bad, if anything it is extremely detailed, the mids and base are good, but the highs are what is causing the problem, they are more forward and overpower the other frequencies. 
The highs almost hurt my ears with the headphones channeling sound directly into my ears, definitely would not want to do extended listening with headphones.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DT999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2020 at 9:38am
Originally posted by CageyH CageyH wrote:

I am not familiar with the headphone amp you have.
Have you tried connecting the Reflex directly to the Rega Ear?
Have you tried a different cable between the amp and the headphone amp?

My thoughts (and I am no expert on this) is that if it sounds ok through the speakers, then the issue has to be between the amp, headphone amp and headphones.

Yes that's my thought also but It didn't sound as harsh previously when using a Rega fono, and my other TT run through the Rega fono also is not as harsh. 

I can only assume the Reflex is showing up something that the Fono hid or coloured.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CageyH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2020 at 8:32am
I am not familiar with the headphone amp you have.
Have you tried connecting the Reflex directly to the Rega Ear?
Have you tried a different cable between the amp and the headphone amp?

My thoughts (and I am no expert on this) is that if it sounds ok through the speakers, then the issue has to be between the amp, headphone amp and headphones.


Edited by CageyH - 29 Mar 2020 at 8:33am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CageyH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2020 at 8:26am
If it only sounds bad through the headphones, then as you suggest it has to be the headphones or the amp. What headphone amp are you using?

Ah, I see it is the Rega Ear.


Edited by CageyH - 29 Mar 2020 at 8:27am
Kevin
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