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1970s Design Indulgence

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2023 at 5:48pm
Just with diode-drops as the base spreader - that's three MUR120's and one 1N4148 - it's enough to cause 44mA quiescent current to flow in the output stage.

Now, what you have are emitters with resistors and odd values at that, and the odd values gave the best distortion readings, so they're staying odd.

And the reason for this oddness is because the bottom 8 volts of the 77 volt DC power supply is used up in the voltage amp (you'll get it eventually).

So, the DC operating point is (77/2) + 8 = 46.5V, so 77 - 46.5 = 30.5V.

And that's the same ratio as the oddness of the emitter resistors, so quiescently, the power dissipated in the upper and lower halves are equal.

But, Self's idea is that emitter resistors are equal, which is OK in a symmetrical DC coupled amp, but not this antique design.

Therefore, the quiescent emitter voltages are not equal.

But, seriously, does this matter?

We learn from Cordell that the output transistors, although matched in many ways, are not matched in other ways, and how could they ever be matched when you consider that in NPN's electrons swap places, and PNP's the holes left by the electrons swap places.

Looking into Cordell's SPICE models we can see that there is base resistance and that base resistance differs between the NPN and the PNP transistors, which are otherwise well-matched.

Their emitter resistances are in fact, their base resistances divided by their beta (hFE), and so there is inbuilt emitter resistance other than the thermal resistance all transistors have.

Therefore, Self's equal emitter resistors are based on misplaced theory (maybe)?

Then Oliver's assumptions, even though based on multiple computer calculations, might also be misleading.

We then must examine how beta changes with current. Put simply, beta increases with current - not by a fantastic amount - but it changes.

Therefore the invisible base resistance (Rb) / beta emitter resistance isn't a constant.

Also, this situation says that the invisible emitter resistance won't be matched either.

So, at 44mA, the upper emitter resistance drops 9.5mV and the lower 14.5mV, but that's not including the part, Rb/beta.

Therefore, if we add that, then maybe the 9.5mV becomes a few percent larger, and the same goes for 14.5mV, but being dynamic - beta changes with current - then we can only guess as to what the emitter voltage drops really are.

The idea surrounding crossover distortion (zero-crossing distortion) is that the emitter resistance needs to stay within the limits 13mV to 26mV to prevent gm doubling.

The gm (mutual conductance) (of a silicon transistor) is 40...

40 what? I am not going into that right now, but it's caused by the thermal voltage of 26mV (at 25C).

So, if the total emitter resistance is at, or exceeds 26mV, there is gm doubling.

26 + 26 = 52, and 52/26 = 2. The 2 indicating double.

Once it reaches double and then starts to exceed it, zero-crossing distortion increases at low volumes - at low output power - and that is the failing of solid-state amps.

Likewise, if it goes below 13mV, then 26/13 is also 2, and zero-crossing distortion at low volumes rises again.

So, how loud do we actually listen?

My SPL meter tells me that comfortable is 70dB and getting on for loud is 80dB. Working backwards and using speaker sensitivity specs and decibels, we can calculate that it's less than a watt.

But that's an average, and I'm going to guess that it might just be 1/3rd of a watt, and 8 watts on transients, which means the smallest sound we hear is 0.3mW!!!

Therefore, it might appear that we really need minimal zero-crossing distortion and so the real and imaginary parts of emitter resistor voltage do need to fall in-between 13mV and 26mV (making Oliver right).

The voltage on the upper emitter resistor being only 9.5mV, is actually only the real part. The imaginary part is x, the value of x is unknown.

The value of x can be estimated, which I'll try to do next.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2023 at 7:52pm
According to the Cordell models, the PNP has slightly more base resistance than the NPN and these base resistances are:  NPN 3 ohms; PNP 3.3 ohms.

The drivers have 18mA standing current, so their output impedances are 26mV/18mA = 1.44 ohms.

The total base resistances are

NPN 3 + 1.44 = 4.44 ohms
PNP 3.3 + 1.44 = 4.74 ohms

Both betas are equal at 90.

4.44 / 90 = 0.049 ohms
4.74 / 90 = 0.053 ohms

These are the "imaginary" values which add to the real emitter resistances, so

NPN = 0.049 + 0.22 = 0.269 ohms
PNP = 0.052 + 0.33 = 0.382 ohms

And at 44mA quiescent current,

NPN = 0.269 x 44 = 11.84mV
PNP = 0.382 x 44 = 16.81mV

The NPN is slightly under 13mV whereas the PNP is nicely near the middle of 13-26mV.

But what about the "dynamic quiescent" current? The point immediately just after the signal stops?

Even with the diodes mounted on the transistors, there is still thermal lag, and two of the diodes (a MUR120 and a 1N4148) are simply board mounted.

It only needs a 10% quiescent current increase to put both firmly inside the 13 - 26 mV envelope.

Therefore, the zero-crossing distortion must be minimal.

The dominant distortion will always remain as 2nd harmonic, simply because of the asymmetry between the two emitter resistance voltages for a symmetrical signal.

However, how many musical signals are symmetrical?


Edited by Graham Slee - 22 Feb 2023 at 10:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BAK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2023 at 2:19am
Your last few posts explain a lot about idle current (Iq) in output stages.
 The difference between NPN & PNP will always be different due to their construction.
That difference between NPN & PNP has been difficult for even senior engineers to understand.
This information you provide here is very understandable.

 Thank you for your exhaustive research.
Bruce
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote morris_minor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2023 at 9:17am
Originally posted by BAK BAK wrote:

This information you provide here is very understandable.
I wish I understood it! LOL
Bob

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fatmangolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2023 at 6:04pm
I understood because it is technical now not mysterious. Thank you Graham.
Jon

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sylvain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2023 at 10:44pm
It helps to read page 280 to form " context" and relate to the 'dynamic quiescent " current is adjusted on the 70's Power Amp with the Voltmeter indicator ....But I think Graham demonstrate the incident of adjustment impact of the current and performance of the amp and to music .....The  numerical '' values " of the adjusted current, it's impact on the transistors and eventual musical frequencies but i am still on my 3rd reading ....determined to '' get it". 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ICL1P Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2023 at 8:34am
Has the 7eventy continued its journey?
Ifor
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