Copyright © 1998
Cadman Enterprises Ltd
Welcome to the Graham Slee Audio Products Owners Forum Open to all owners plus those contemplating the purchase of a Graham Slee HiFi System Components audio product and wishing to use this forum's loaner program: join here (Rules on posting can be found here) This website along with trade marks Graham Slee and HiFi System Components are owned by Cadman Enterprises Ltd |
Burn-in truths |
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Author | |
Graham Slee
Admin Group Retired Joined: 11 Jan 2008 Location: South Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 16298 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Posted: 26 Jan 2009 at 12:16pm |
Quote from Analog Devices "Op Amp Applications" Handbook; Chapter 7: Hardware and Housekeeping Techniques; Section 7-1: Passive Components by James Bryant, Walt Jung and Walt Kester...
"All resistors tend to change slightly in value with age. Manufacturers specify long-term stability in terms of change - ppm/year. Values of 50 or 75 ppm/year are not uncommon among metal film resistors. For critical applications, metal-film devices should be burned-in for at least one week at rated power. During burn-in, resistance values can shift by up to 100 or 200 ppm. Metal film resistors may need 4-5000 operational hours for full stabilization, especially if deprived of a burn-in period." Metal film resistors are the best "all-rounders" among resistors only excelled by "bulk metal or metal foil" types which have the disadvantages of being low power and very expensive. Virtually all our resistors are metal film. I investigated burning-in on a production scale and had to abandon the thought: the cost was absolutely prohibitive - it would have pushed prices up far more than double. On a one by one DIY basis I'm sure it could be worthwhile. Most resistors are run well within and often at a small fraction of their power ratings simply because that is how a design pans out. Therefore the user should be prepared for up to 6 months total burn-in. A sobering thought for us all, never mind those who have difficulties in separating hi-fi myth from hi-fi fact. |
|
That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps
|
|
PinkFloyd
New Member Joined: 19 Nov 2008 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 9 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
So... it begs the question.... have you listened to your designs for 6 months + and factored in this "burn-in" as part of the "eventual" end user experience?.... I doubt it..... Sooooooo, a resistor takes 6 months to burn in, that doesn't immediately equate to "after 6 months this amp will sound better"..... the value could drift and the amp could sound a lot worse as a result, it could drift the wrong way, there are no constants here and a lot of variables to take into consideration Graham.
At LAST..... a manufacturer who listens with his EARS.... all we need now are components that actually do what it says on the tin (immediately!)
Mike.
|
|
mrarroyo
Moderator Group Joined: 28 Jul 2008 Location: Miami Beach, FL Status: Offline Points: 1401 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Plus in which direction will a resistor drift. Statistically it may be that 50% go one direction w/ 50% the other, when you factor in the value of the change the permutations are enough to drive anyone insane.
I will go on record by saying that too many of us (self included) worry to much about numbers and not the music. An acquaintance says: If it sounds good, it is good.
|
|
Miguel
|
|
Graham Slee
Admin Group Retired Joined: 11 Jan 2008 Location: South Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 16298 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I would hazard a guess that the earlier part of the 6 months is probably the steeper part of the burn-in curve. And true Mike, we don't have time to run the full 6 months on every permutation, but nowadays we're not rushing to market so quickly (in fact I personally need crutches but that's another story...), and I reckon 90% (ish) of the components will be fully burnt-in by the last tweak before signing off.
From a DC point of view, op-amp input current vs resistance matching goes a long way to reduce the effect of ouput drift with burn-in value changes. I've noticed it's beneficial to the sound too. As you both commented, the sound is the final arbiter. |
|
That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps
|
|
sunhao
New Member Joined: 23 Jan 2008 Location: Shanghai, China Status: Offline Points: 32 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
What about capacitors? I thought caps changed even more than resistors. And power transistors, do they change in specs over time?
|
|
Graham Slee
Admin Group Retired Joined: 11 Jan 2008 Location: South Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 16298 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
True Mr Sun - I've been harping-on about capacitor burn-in for quite some time. From the humble electrolytic to the sublime polypropylene, they all seem to take a few days, even weeks. But resistors? You don't see much about resistor burn-in, and I thought that was interesting. Silicon too, as you note, takes time to "develop". And so do interconnects.
I guess they've all got one thing in common - insulation. And when we find there is no such thing as an insulator - just very poor conductors, I think that is the giveaway that answers why burn-in takes so long. You can "whirl" an interconnect to loosen the grip of a poor conductor (the plastic insulations) from a "super-conductor" (the copper wires), but how do you loosen the grip of the coating on top of a metal film resistor element? Burning-in at full rated power for one week will definitely cause some thermal expansion - perhaps the tight grip of insulation is the real reason behind burn-in? Why things don't sound right straight away. After all, a capacitor is layers of insulation and conductors in intimate contact. The better sounding dielectrics (dielectric means insulator) are those less prone to adhesion - and polypropylene will not readily accept anything stuck to its surface. And we do find that Teflon has great sound properties - Teflon is "non-stick". So, it could be safe to assume that electron flow at the point of contact between conductor and "insulator" is the mechanism that breaks down, or loosens the grip? And if so, then the lowest current part of a circuit is going to take the longest. All this could be complete speculation on my part, but there is some very good supporting evidence: for those able to grasp how overhead electricity cables in the power distribution infrastructure work - the cables are uninsulated not for reasons of economy because they're "up there", but because insulated alternating current cables get hot due to "drag" or resistance (a "Biker's" analogy being wind resistance...) of that insulation - and being uninsulated is why they put them up there. Now that argument may not sound tangible - more like I made it up on the spot? No! Every copy of the IEEE xth edition on-site guide used by electrical installers, and part of the qualification process for electricians, bears this out - just look up the different current ratings for the same type and rating of wire: the more insulation - the less efficient it gets. Yes, it is about heat disipation, but how is that heat caused in the first place? And you'd have to be a "Boy Scout" or "Girl Guide" (being politically correct...) to really understand that! |
|
That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps
|
|
sunhao
New Member Joined: 23 Jan 2008 Location: Shanghai, China Status: Offline Points: 32 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Is there a way to speed up the burn-in process? Such as, using big current (care needed to avoid damage)?
I have seen a cable-burner made by Nordost, a major cable company in North Europe, and I have heard people say they like playing new headphones loud to burn them in quickly. Apart from the potential risk of damage, will this really help speed up the burn-in process? I think many people are really interested in ways of speeding up burn-in.
|
|
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You can vote in polls in this forum |