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Auditory Dementia

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DaveG View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2015 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by Graham Slee Graham Slee wrote:



.... And as the cable directionality seems to fade with time, then these accumulations of charges in localised areas inside the insulation (due to HVDC???), could be dissipating?

Having dissipated, the cable no longer has any directionality.

Then, at that point, cable directionality ceases to exist, and because of that, it would be illegal to sell a cable as having directionality - AND SO WE DON'T!!!

But then it raises a possible proof for something else....

Cable Burn-In!


It's an interesting subject, some cable manufacturers argue for directionality, some against. I can see no harm in suggesting directionality.. it's not like you are charging a premium for this advice or touting it as some revolutionary discovery. People are free to ignore it (or benefit from it). 

I found this, from another cable manufacturer of interest as it seems to echo some of the things you have touched on. Especially the bit about directionality fading with time... or in other words burn in. While they don't claim directionality as such, to this layman they do seem to be making a plausible case not changing the cables around once they are settled in:

"When a cable transfers power from an amplifier to a speaker it does so by means of an A.C. current which flows within the going and return conductors. Each conductor 'experiences' a continuously reversing current flow.

It may be possible that cables using certain dielectrics or conductor materials can be directional as a result of the electron flow affecting the resistance of the cable. It's certainly true to say that the sound from Censored cables improves with use. It may be that the metal or more likely the dielectric adopts a position when charged and that as a result, current finds its route of least resistance. If a cable has been used in the same direction for a number of hours, the sound quality improves. If it's then reversed, the sound reverts back to the original sound before use and eventually improves again with use in the reversed direction!

 With the exception of some of our interconnect cables which are wired in a pseudo balanced configuration (and are therefore directional by virtue of the way they are intended to be used), our cables when new from the carton should be considered non directional, but should not be reversed following use or burn in".



Edited by DaveG - 28 Jan 2015 at 4:43pm
Dave

Michell Gorbe + HR PSU -> Cadenza Bronze -> SME V -> Elevator -> Accession -> Proprius -> B&W CM6 s2 | Cusat 50 & Spatia cables ->
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phildent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2015 at 4:51pm
An interesting discussion with the potential for some witch burning.
I feel,as with a lot of science,that is used inaproppriately.I am sure it can be proven scientifically.However,I am sure this is not the form that we remember music,voices etc
Unfortunately people misuse this science when they are merely too ignorant to understand it.
An analogy is NICE(National Institute For Clinical Excellence) having had to put up with them in my clinical life.Science very poorly portrayed to a political or economic end.It is quite clear to anyone with hands on medical experience that they are obvious buffoons.

If we are open minded we can all decide for ourselves about cable direction,in fact having read Grahams postI am now even more convinced.
I have over the last couple of days tried my system cables various ways round to find I actually cannot tell the difference but on reading the post about age realized all my cables are several years old.
I have some new interconnect cables which I have never tried but on reading the above both my wife and I can clearly tell which way round they were.That convinces me.
I do not understand most of the technical explanations that people on here are kind enough to share but since the results of particularly GSP's application of science agrees with my ears I consider someone there knows what they are doing.
Incidentally Graham there were obviously two Yorkshire men at Durham at that time but mathematics was way beyond me.
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Ash View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2015 at 10:11pm
I like this topic, please keep talking everyone. I personally feel that Graham raises some very fundamental questions that others should not discredit. I am very interested in the whole cable directionality and burn-in topic. Uneven charge distribution across conductors could explain audible differences and why some listening observations are typically inconsistent over time.

Too much science is based on statistics, I'm afraid... and statistics (it's typical interpretation anyway) is the bullcrap of Satan! (to use Graham's own way with words). The real world is not the same as the mathematical models so statistics have limited validity IMO. For scientists to claim that people can only have very short-term memory of a frequent experience such as listening to music is actually quite a blinkered and misguided point of view IMO.

Although I will say that memory of past experiences are not always completely accurate. Depends on how objective the original experience was. This is why when I compared all my headphones a few months back, I had them playing side-by-side during my comparisons so my memory was fresh and the differences were very clearly heard. During listening, I also didn't rush to conclusions, I listened to different music genres, I listened on different days whilst in various moods and I varied my listening time between switching so that I heard differences after both short-term and extended listening. I simply didn't trust myself right away! I spent a careful amount of time analyzing so I could put a lot of trust in my final conclusions.
We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fatmangolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2015 at 10:48pm
I wonder what the scientific research was about, before being 'applied' to hi-fi?
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Drewan77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 2015 at 12:05am
Earlier in my life, it would be more appropriate to call this Auditory Paranoia….

Equipment reviewers in the rags always seemed to be so sure about what they heard, using a kind of syrupy prose akin to wine tasting & as a young man too weak to resist, I inevitably took the plunge

note at this point: blame the fact that my first Pioneer PL12D, VMS20E, NAD3020 and some early BBC monitors sounded so good together & I was convinced that all you had to do was ‘trust the experts’ (- or maybe it’s that gear really was so good back then)

Anyway here are a few of my audiofool endeavours:

- Floor standers must be ‘better’ than stand mounts (or was it the other way?)
- Special mounting feet block vibration and molecular heat build up (wow ,must have those !, I thought)
- Spend a fortune on cabling and ‘more expensive’ is definitely ‘best’ (WRONG!)
- Mains filtering gear is like having a new system
- A metal and glass rack was meant to be ‘better’ than the sideboard
….’perfect sound forever’ - don’t get me started on that one, all it did was cause me to sell a lot of my treasured LPs in the 80s and then about 15 years trying to filter a tiny mosquito out of my ears
- etc etc

Because I probably spend considerably more £s listening to live music than I even do on media I suppose I was always on a hiding to nothing trying to replicate it but reviewers always seemed to promise just that

Then when I either auditioned at a dealer or at home, all I managed to do was frustrate and curse myself because I was concentrating so hard to hear those same ‘as reviewed’ nuances from this life changing piece of equipment, that I often didn’t notice the music itself. I became confused or just convinced that the reviewer had got it right and then my inner placebo took over

When some of the gear I purchased didn’t really satisfy after a few weeks, i realised that it must be my own foolish mistake by combining incompatible devices together (that’s what the ‘experts’ always said). I was resigned to the fact that I obviously wasn’t that good at this so I just had to trust the experts and carry on until my next upgrade came along

By my forties I had finally given up and decided that I really must have a tin ear - I stopped buying hi-fi mags altogether, stopped dealer demos and only auditioned items which garnered lots of positive ‘user’ feedback on the web or from a dealer I knew and trusted. Listening to music at home for as long as a demo would allow I gradually realised that all I had to do was just listen to the music itself and NOT concentrate on the system.

For at least the past 10-15 years I think I have become quite good at determining when something ‘sounds right’ or more particularly when something in the system is changed and I sense when it isn’t OK. It is quite rarely an instant thing with me and usually takes hours, sometimes a few days listening. It may sound crazy but I can only describe it as a sort of ‘feel the force’ thing and that’s why I sense when a cable directionality or polarity seems to be correct and I certainly knew when I heard my first Graham Slee products that there is something very special going on

Older than I once was, younger than I'll be
.............................
Andrew
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RichW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 2015 at 8:27am
I read somewhere - think it was a dealer's mail shot a few years ago, that cables also
wear out with use. I think the idea was that you replaced them after ten years or so.
Can't remember any supporting evidence for this - charge carriers in the metal running out?

Majestic/Enigma, Accession MM & MC.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote morris_minor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 2015 at 9:07am
Originally posted by RichW RichW wrote:

I read somewhere - think it was a dealer's mail shot a few years ago, that cables also
wear out with use. I think the idea was that you replaced them after ten years or so.
Can't remember any supporting evidence for this - charge carriers in the metal running out?
The evidence would be that the dealer's bank balance was getting low. . . Evil Smile
Bob

Majestic DAC/pre-amp
Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V
Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50
2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links
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