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Forever capacitors

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digital man View Drop Down
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    Posted: 12 Nov 2013 at 3:20am
Hello everyone,

I took a look inside of my Reflex today, just to see whether it has the 100pf or 220pf input loading capacitors. I was just curious. While it was open I noticed most of the power supply electrolytics are made by "Forever". To be honest I expected to see Elna or a brand similar to Elna. I have never heard of "Forever" before, so I want to ask why they were chosen to replace Elna, or whatever used to be used a few years ago.

I know it's none of my business, and I'm not trying to stir up a hornets nest. I am just curious, that's all. I expect there was a lot involved in choosing these caps for production of the flagship MM phono stage.

Best wishes to everyone.


Edited by digital man - 12 Nov 2013 at 3:21am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2013 at 9:42am
The simple answer is that Graham rejected electrolytic capacitors that imposed a particular sound signature on the final sound. Through trials, he came to understand which types of electronic component (e.g. electrolytic capacitors) added their own character to the sound and which ones didn't. The components selected now are the result of trial and improvement, where the selections do not impart any particular sound signature. Graham doesn't wish for the equipment to sound like equipment; he wishes for it to escape such confines and be mistakable for reality. It's the same kind of story with his Proprius amplifier; he didn't want it to sound like an amplifier. He was passionately curious, I think, about what would happen if the entire audio chain was made so transparent and impartial that it could easily be perceived to be a reproduction of the original source.


So the answer: He was trying to avoid colouration like the plague.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2013 at 10:00am
Elna stopped making the Starget (for the European market at least) in 2006 because it could not comply with RoHS. They replaced it with the Tonerex and I immediately stocked up with 12,000 units of different values - they were never used...

Sounding great initially, after two days of use the bass all but disappeared, and no matter what I tried to prevent this, nothing could be done.

The only Elna options I had were the Silmics but they are too heavily signatured and changed the sound too far away from our "house sound" (if in fact we have a "house sound").

I ordered up samples of Panasonic's audio offerings, and found Nichicon did some nice sounding electrolytics too. These were pressed into action, and were... OK-ish. However, I felt a little sad that I wasn't getting the last ounce the Stargets wrung out for me.

I found I had to mix and match and things were getting quite fraught, and I decided there had to be a sea change in how I did things. I put myself on a steep analytical learning curve, and armed with a new (at the time) simulation program, set about rehashing the entire range product by product. What for? To try and arrive back to the pre-RoHS sonics.

The Panasonic's and Nichicon's never quite hit the spot no matter what rethink was tried. Everything was too coloured - probably not enough for even the most ardent listener to notice - but too coloured for me.

In a fit of what I thought to be madness I decided to look into the dissipation factors of general purpose capacitors. Most were so-so, but one or two jumped out as being... well, not short of miraculous.

Could they be making it all up, I wondered? Surely not. The only way to find out was to try some of these capacitors.

Amongst others I ordered up several Forever electrolytics - the ones that featured the lowest dissipation factors. With dissipation factors approaching those of polypropylene I was very impressed.

The results were quite alarming! Gone were the signatures and everything sounded much more natural.

Anyway, it doesn't stop there because you never know what's round the corner. Manufacturers can suddenly pull the rug out from under your feet, so for now it's Forever, but tomorrow it may be something else.

One can't help wondering how other manufacturers coped with the transition to RoHS, but now and then other designers products land on my desk, sent by friends, customers, trade people etc, and they ask me out of curiosity my opinions and will I put them on the test gear... that sort of thing.

It wouldn't be the first time we've opened up a product in current production to find something rather naughty... non-RoHS components including Stargets (because companies like RS were overstocked and still have car-loads to get rid of). So, some manufacturers cheat.

The thing about hi-fi is it's so full of bullsh*t the septic tank is overflowing and the crap is spreading everywhere.

By the above I mean the viral marketing which is highly biased at audiovile components. For a product to be worth its salt it has to feature trendy parts and each time I read a manufacturer's jargon expounding that they're the best because they use those bling parts I feel like vomiting!

The hi-fi buyer is bullsh*tted into believing those parts are sooooo essential that without them they are being ripped off - no! The boot is on the other foot!

I used to believe all the hype surrounding wound polypropylene capacitors for example - but think about it...

Polypropylene is supposedly great at high frequencies - large pulse rates - the "slew rate" of a capacitor. Whereas anything wound is inductive and therefore the capacitor goes inductive at high frequencies, and therefore all its benefits are wiped out. Nobody talks about stacked film! And in a way I'm pleased.

No, what you get in our products is the result of down to earth but still advanced component selection that ignores hi-fi bullsh*t. The difference is that I research to the deepest level and I can explain why I use what I use.

Obviously most of what I explain goes way above most people's understanding so it is frustrating not being able to get the message across.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2013 at 10:05am
Oh! I almost forgot!

Price difference...

It's a matter of pence!

You get charged rip off prices if you go to those audiovile suppliers for the trendy parts. When I buy Nichicon or some other audio capacitor it may cost 1p more than a general purpose capacitor, but then again, I do have to buy in 1,000 MOQ's.

Just mentioned that in case you thought I was trying to rip you off.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BAK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2013 at 2:38am

Graham wrote: "Anyway, it doesn't stop there because you never know what's round the corner. Manufacturers can suddenly pull the rug out from under your feet, so for now it's Forever, but tomorrow it may be something else."

And some have found yesterday's, non-RoHS, parts inside new units!
 
I'm with Graham, let's go "BACK TO THE FUTURE"! if that is where Forever caps lead us.
 
Kidding aside, the lower dissipation factor type caps are more desirable.
There are some more capacitor design factors, as Graham mentioned, that must be examined during part selection. All design factors must be considered when selecting parts.
Thank you Graham for taking the time to scrutinize every part in your designs.
 
I enjoy your descriptions in your design criteria.
Bruce
 
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AT-14SA, Pickering XV-15, Hana EL, Technics SL-1600MK2, Lautus, Majestic DAC, Technics SH-8055 spectrum analyzer, Eminence Beta8A custom cabs; Proprius & Reflex M or C, Enjoy Life your way!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fatmangolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2013 at 10:58pm
There's a lot more to designing great British hi-fi than circuit simulations and test measurements. We hear Graham's years of auditioning different parts to get the truest sound whenever we enjoy our music through the GSP gear. I remember the difference the different types of capacitors made to the Genera and Graham was right in his characterisation of the sound I heard.
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BAK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2018 at 2:02pm
 
Originally posted by Graham Slee Graham Slee wrote:

so for now it's Forever, but tomorrow it may be something else.


I'm with Graham, let's go "BACK TO THE FUTURE"! if that is where Forever caps lead us.
Bruce
AT-14SA, Pickering XV-15, Hana EL, Technics SL-1600MK2, Lautus, Majestic DAC, Technics SH-8055 spectrum analyzer, Eminence Beta8A custom cabs; Proprius & Reflex M or C, Enjoy Life your way!
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