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morris_minor View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote morris_minor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2012 at 4:07pm
Originally posted by suede suede wrote:

Originally posted by discrete badger discrete badger wrote:

On the steak and mince thing....

I have a few really nice sounding LPs, which sound a lot better than the harsh, flat-sounding CD versions. When I sample them at 16/44 uncompressed using my portable audio player, and then play them back through a good DAC, they sound exactly like the excellent LP reproduction, with all the nuances and image depth intact.

According to steak and mince, this should be impossible? But it's plausible that my humble TT and DAP is doing a better job than the CD remastering engineer who didn't understand the medium he was working in.


I have to throw in a differing opinion here. While it's true a good vinyl rip often sounds much better than most CD remasters even though the reolution is the same, a higher bit depth and sampling rate will almost definitely result in greater depth and imaging. More 3D to put it simply. IMO the CD resolution file just sounds a lot flatter although it's just right in every other sense.

I feel the bit depth is more critical than the sampling rate, but agree that rips playing back at redbook standards often aren't quite "there". .  Of course YMMV - and it mostly does, which is why on hi-fi forums globally this same subject is endlessly debated! Wink
Bob

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Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V
Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote discrete badger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2012 at 8:00pm
Originally posted by morris_minor morris_minor wrote:

t's what the majority of the market does/expects IMO . . . 
So 24/96 would "have" to be a de facto minimum. 

I agree. Bob Stuart mentioned in an interview an opinion along the lines that 16/44.1 isn't quite good enough SQ for consumer audio and if only CD had been at something like 20/56 then there would never have been any need for the hi-res formats. Fast forward on a few decades with much greater ability for cheap storage and I think you can argue that 24/96 is an "improved" version of that kind of level - a de facto "next step up" from CD quality. 24/192, argue a few, is just a numbers game.

The other point is that all of the DAC chips and USB receivers that Graham would consider putting in his box would likely support 24/96 with no extra costs over 16/44.1. The extra complications perhaps come with 24/192.

Also I think that you don't have to subscribe to the "numbers game" in order to sell a few DACs to those who do!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fatmangolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2012 at 8:10pm
24 bit depth/word length is better than 16 or squeezing 18 bits. 96kHz sampling would be fine for me.
 
Jon

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote discrete badger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2012 at 8:32pm
Originally posted by discrete badger discrete badger wrote:



IBob Stuart mentioned in an interview an opinion along the lines that 16/44.1 isn't quite good enough


I found the interview. Very interesting and relevant. Obviously there is some promotion of his products but much that pertains to digital audio in general and the question of bit depth / sample rates.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ServerBaboon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2012 at 9:19pm
 I wonder if some this digital chat should be moved to a separate thread as its swamping the original thread.  

Edited by ServerBaboon - 26 Apr 2012 at 9:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fatmangolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2012 at 9:22pm
Thanks discretebadger. It's an interesting article and does promote the approach of his company to making the most of CD sound as well as HD audio.
 
And this is a good thread. [originally from "Suggestion List 2012"]
 


Edited by Fatmangolf - 26 Apr 2012 at 9:42pm
Jon

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote morris_minor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 2012 at 9:48am
Thinking about sample rates etc, is this a good analogy:

Movie film (the roll in a can type, not a memory card!) - 

The film stock could equate to the bit rate. In still-photography terms (I don't know names of movie film stock) 44.1kHz=Kodak Ektachrome 200 (a good all-rounder, a bit grainy, can be washed out if not careful). 96kHz=Kodachrome 64 (fine grain, saturated colours), 192kHz=Kodachrome 25 (ultra fine grain, holographic images).

The differences in film stock are quite apparent - though you need a good eye to tell Kodachrome 25 and 64 apart.

The frames-per-second of movie film could equate to the sample rate. 10fps=jerky movement - we can see movement is not continuous. 25fps=smooth movement - no apparent separation between frames. 50fps=smooth movement - also no apparent separation between frames.

Our eye/brain mechanism can perceive no difference in frames per second once this goes over a certain rate. But the quality of the image will vary with the film stock.

Does our ear/brain mechanism treat sound the same way? High bit rate=fine grain=more detail. High sampling frequency=fps=smooth or not - once over a certain limit we perceive no difference.

<over to you>Discuss ! </> Smile
Bob

Majestic DAC/pre-amp
Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V
Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50
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