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1970s Design Indulgence

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sylvain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2023 at 3:48pm
looking good but may be beyond the keen enthusiast without technical and other support. A lot of almost mechanical electrical even if the modules were available fully built. Your effort and exposure and disclosure of what it takes to build a genuine Pre Amp with transistors commends to your Professional capability of a very genuine Human integrity of a person 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2023 at 10:22pm
You've just got to keep signal wiring as short as possible!

Those were my thoughts on looking at the connections I've made so far. You see, they're not that short. Quite long actually.

But then I thought about all those PCBs where all the connections come out just at the right place. And then I thought about all the track lengths required to get them to the right place.

After that, I didn't feel so bad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2023 at 7:39am
Paraphrasing BBC Science Focus "the electromagnetic wave rippling through the electrons will usually be around 90 per cent of the speed of light"

So will one channel connected by 6 inches of wire sound different to the other channel connected by 2 inches of wire?

It depends on the frequency, yes, but at the frequencies of audio and right up to the stability corner frequency of a typical audio amplifier (1MHz to 10MHz) it will run at ...

Well, let's take the lowest frequency of light as 400,000,000,000,000 Hz and 90% of that is 360,000,000,000,000 Hz and so

10MHz being 10,000,000 Hz, so 360,000,000,000,000 / 10,000,000 = 36,000,000, and as a decimal fraction 0.000000028th.

So, at 10MHz the electromagnetic wave travels 0.000000028th slower than the speed of light.

So, at audio frequencies just add a few more leading zeroes, and if you can hear it, then you need psychiatric help.

But obviously, 6 inches of wire is open to more interference than 2 inches of wire, as all wires are also antennas. But it depends on the direction of that interference and if it's straight down onto the wire, it receives 100%, but we're talking about frequencies, so on the opposite cycle, if the wire has the chassis below it, then it receives 0%, so even an open chassis attenuates interference by half.

Common sense says that you place the thing away from strong magnetic wave generators.

But standards have to assume that there is no common sense ...

------------------------------

Signal start ^ ... to signal received ^ roughly 90% of the speed of light.

Signal "blur": 0.0000028% (compare with the lowest THD you ever saw)

Regardless of wire length (because it's a.c.)

And much faster at audio frequencies.

And what you're playing has already undergone the same.



Edited by Graham Slee - 27 Sep 2023 at 12:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2023 at 2:05pm
In "approved" separates - preamp and power amp - both having touchable metal parts, each separate must be mains earthed.

One exception: safety extra low voltage supplied by a separate power supply.

So we connect chassis twice: 1. by the mains earth, and 2. by the interconnect's screen return.

For as long as I can remember the hum-loop this creates has been fixed by one cheat-fix or another.

None are correct!

One way is to use differential outputs and inputs (balanced), but that can also be bad for fidelity (I'm not going to explain why in this post as I've discussed it time and time before).

Something has to give, but when it does, it never removes the hum-loop. OK, it might not hum anymore, but there still is loop current, and the early adopters of the pre-modified power amp heard what a "silent" loop sounds like! (that being the stereo distortion loop)

One well-known cheat-fix is to not earth the preamp as the interconnect's screen will conduct preamp chassis to earth via the power amp. Except, that way isn't an approved way - even though it works!

Another way is to "float" the socket grounds via 10 - 100 ohm resistors, except, the socket ground is a touchable metal part!!!

The 10 - 100 ohm resistor can be placed in the interconnect itself, but would any interconnect manufacturer be bothered? I mean, do they do it now? No.

The hum loop problem has always existed - even in balanced! - and it will always exist.

The only sure fire way it goes away is through mesh grounding, but try telling that to the massed brainwashed hi-fi user.

In this preamp, the main chassis will be connected to mains earth via the often used 10 ohm resistor in parallel with a 100n film capacitor.

The loop is still there! The loop isn't high fidelity. The only thing that can make it better is the interconnect having a highly conductive screen and phono plugs that lock on hard (by twisting rather than the destructive method explained in an earlier post of mine).

And that's one way of explaining how different interconnects work differently to others, that isn't imagined bunkum!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2023 at 6:25pm
As 45 years ago I didn't bother checking. I'd just had enough of the soldering shakes - the two pairs of glasses - the awkward Chinese wire, and the awkward Chinese plated pins!

I gave it a good look over, it all seemed to be there, and thought "sod the test gear", and went and plugged it in. Turntable connected, output to power amp, switch on and hope.

Well, it works (so far). Swing the balance left and the left speaker goes louder than the right speaker (and vice-versa). Tone controls work. Tone cancel works!

45 years in the making. I'm exhausted and feel like calling it a day (perhaps?)

Preamp switch on

Preamp working



Edited by Graham Slee - 29 Sep 2023 at 5:31am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mikeh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2023 at 7:08pm
It does.look grand!  Hopefully the test gear will prove the end result.
Mike

Technics sl1210g with Victor U-2
Accession MM, Majestic + Proprius, Solo ULDE
Cambridge Audio CXC CD player
Lindemann Limetree Bridge streamer
Harbeth P3ESR XD paired with 2x REL t5x
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2023 at 11:37pm
The vinyl input sounds louder that its 38dB gain would suggest, and digital (from the Majestic fixed output sockets) seems to have a bit more "meat" - perhaps I should say both seem a tad warmer than you'd expect for solid state. Then again, this is discrete transistors with lower open-loop gain than op-amps.

The 35dB attenuation followed by 35dB gain on the more sensitive line input doesn't seem to have taken anything away. The source output impedance has zilch effect on the preamp input, and this is due to the attenuation. The preamp simply sees a small driving resistance - this being around 800 ohms.

It will take a few days for the electrolytics to bed in. Often you get a fuller sound with brand new electrolytics, which then "give" and the "consistency" improves - the sound becomes more realistic.

Timing is fast enough, but should improve, and perspective or soundstage depth is becoming deeper, making fade-outs sound like the stage is receding into the distance.

Clicks and pops as well as "groove distortion" are well back with music to the fore.

Maximum output noise is a bit high indicating a hum-loop. It isn't induced noise from the transformer as I switched the mains off and it remained until the smoothing cap discharged.

Perhaps the 10 ohm resistor has to be 100 ohms and the cap 10n instead of 100n. Or, perhaps it's the cap and it just needs the 10 ohm resistor. These are the joys of grounding.
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