Copyright © 1998
Cadman Enterprises Ltd
Welcome to the Graham Slee Audio Products Owners Forum ![]() Open to all owners plus those contemplating the purchase of a Graham Slee HiFi System Components audio product and wishing to use this forum's loaner program: join here (Rules on posting can be found here) This website along with trade marks Graham Slee and HiFi System Components are owned by Cadman Enterprises Ltd |
1970s Design Indulgence |
Post Reply ![]() |
Page <1 279280281282283 333> |
Author | |
Graham Slee ![]() Admin Group ![]() ![]() Retired Joined: 11 Jan 2008 Location: South Yorkshire Status: Online Points: 16097 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Just with diode-drops as the base spreader - that's three MUR120's and one 1N4148 - it's enough to cause 44mA quiescent current to flow in the output stage. Now, what you have are emitters with resistors and odd values at that, and the odd values gave the best distortion readings, so they're staying odd. And the reason for this oddness is because the bottom 8 volts of the 77 volt DC power supply is used up in the voltage amp (you'll get it eventually). So, the DC operating point is (77/2) + 8 = 46.5V, so 77 - 46.5 = 30.5V. And that's the same ratio as the oddness of the emitter resistors, so quiescently, the power dissipated in the upper and lower halves are equal. But, Self's idea is that emitter resistors are equal, which is OK in a symmetrical DC coupled amp, but not this antique design. Therefore, the quiescent emitter voltages are not equal. But, seriously, does this matter? We learn from Cordell that the output transistors, although matched in many ways, are not matched in other ways, and how could they ever be matched when you consider that in NPN's electrons swap places, and PNP's the holes left by the electrons swap places. Looking into Cordell's SPICE models we can see that there is base resistance and that base resistance differs between the NPN and the PNP transistors, which are otherwise well-matched. Their emitter resistances are in fact, their base resistances divided by their beta (hFE), and so there is inbuilt emitter resistance other than the thermal resistance all transistors have. Therefore, Self's equal emitter resistors are based on misplaced theory (maybe)? Then Oliver's assumptions, even though based on multiple computer calculations, might also be misleading. We then must examine how beta changes with current. Put simply, beta increases with current - not by a fantastic amount - but it changes. Therefore the invisible base resistance (Rb) / beta emitter resistance isn't a constant. Also, this situation says that the invisible emitter resistance won't be matched either. So, at 44mA, the upper emitter resistance drops 9.5mV and the lower 14.5mV, but that's not including the part, Rb/beta. Therefore, if we add that, then maybe the 9.5mV becomes a few percent larger, and the same goes for 14.5mV, but being dynamic - beta changes with current - then we can only guess as to what the emitter voltage drops really are. The idea surrounding crossover distortion (zero-crossing distortion) is that the emitter resistance needs to stay within the limits 13mV to 26mV to prevent gm doubling. The gm (mutual conductance) (of a silicon transistor) is 40... 40 what? I am not going into that right now, but it's caused by the thermal voltage of 26mV (at 25C). So, if the total emitter resistance is at, or exceeds 26mV, there is gm doubling. 26 + 26 = 52, and 52/26 = 2. The 2 indicating double. Once it reaches double and then starts to exceed it, zero-crossing distortion increases at low volumes - at low output power - and that is the failing of solid-state amps. Likewise, if it goes below 13mV, then 26/13 is also 2, and zero-crossing distortion at low volumes rises again. So, how loud do we actually listen? My SPL meter tells me that comfortable is 70dB and getting on for loud is 80dB. Working backwards and using speaker sensitivity specs and decibels, we can calculate that it's less than a watt. But that's an average, and I'm going to guess that it might just be 1/3rd of a watt, and 8 watts on transients, which means the smallest sound we hear is 0.3mW!!! Therefore, it might appear that we really need minimal zero-crossing distortion and so the real and imaginary parts of emitter resistor voltage do need to fall in-between 13mV and 26mV (making Oliver right). The voltage on the upper emitter resistor being only 9.5mV, is actually only the real part. The imaginary part is x, the value of x is unknown. The value of x can be estimated, which I'll try to do next.
|
|
That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps
|
|
![]() |
|
Graham Slee ![]() Admin Group ![]() ![]() Retired Joined: 11 Jan 2008 Location: South Yorkshire Status: Online Points: 16097 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
According to the Cordell models, the PNP has slightly more base resistance than the NPN and these base resistances are: NPN 3 ohms; PNP 3.3 ohms. The drivers have 18mA standing current, so their output impedances are 26mV/18mA = 1.44 ohms. The total base resistances are NPN 3 + 1.44 = 4.44 ohms PNP 3.3 + 1.44 = 4.74 ohms Both betas are equal at 90. 4.44 / 90 = 0.049 ohms 4.74 / 90 = 0.053 ohms These are the "imaginary" values which add to the real emitter resistances, so NPN = 0.049 + 0.22 = 0.269 ohms PNP = 0.052 + 0.33 = 0.382 ohms And at 44mA quiescent current, NPN = 0.269 x 44 = 11.84mV PNP = 0.382 x 44 = 16.81mV The NPN is slightly under 13mV whereas the PNP is nicely near the middle of 13-26mV. But what about the "dynamic quiescent" current? The point immediately just after the signal stops? Even with the diodes mounted on the transistors, there is still thermal lag, and two of the diodes (a MUR120 and a 1N4148) are simply board mounted. It only needs a 10% quiescent current increase to put both firmly inside the 13 - 26 mV envelope. Therefore, the zero-crossing distortion must be minimal. The dominant distortion will always remain as 2nd harmonic, simply because of the asymmetry between the two emitter resistance voltages for a symmetrical signal. However, how many musical signals are symmetrical?
Edited by Graham Slee - 22 Feb 2023 at 10:54pm |
|
That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps
|
|
![]() |
|
BAK ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 14 Mar 2010 Location: Kentucky, USA Status: Offline Points: 1735 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Your last few posts explain a lot about idle current (Iq) in output stages.
The difference between NPN & PNP will always be different due to their construction. That difference between NPN & PNP has been difficult for even senior engineers to understand. This information you provide here is very understandable. Thank you for your exhaustive research.
|
|
Bruce
AT-14SA, Pickering XV-15, Hana EL, Technics SL-1600MK2, Lautus, Majestic DAC, Technics SH-8055 spectrum analyzer, Eminence Beta8A custom cabs; Proprius & Reflex M or C, Enjoy Life your way! |
|
![]() |
|
morris_minor ![]() Moderator Group ![]() ![]() Joined: 27 Mar 2012 Location: Surrey Status: Offline Points: 5904 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
|
Bob
Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
|
![]() |
|
Fatmangolf ![]() Moderator Group ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Dec 2009 Location: Middlesbrough Status: Offline Points: 8623 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
I understood because it is technical now not mysterious. Thank you Graham.
|
|
Jon
Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
|
![]() |
|
Sylvain ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 18 Jan 2010 Status: Offline Points: 457 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
It helps to read page 280 to form " context" and relate to the 'dynamic quiescent " current is adjusted on the 70's Power Amp with the Voltmeter indicator ....But I think Graham demonstrate the incident of adjustment impact of the current and performance of the amp and to music .....The numerical '' values " of the adjusted current, it's impact on the transistors and eventual musical frequencies but i am still on my 3rd reading ....determined to '' get it".
|
|
![]() |
|
ICL1P ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 04 Aug 2012 Location: Faringdon, Oxon Status: Offline Points: 2324 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Has the 7eventy continued its journey?
|
|
Ifor
===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
|
![]() |
Post Reply ![]() |
Page <1 279280281282283 333> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions ![]() You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You can vote in polls in this forum |