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1970s Design Indulgence

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Aussie Mick View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aussie Mick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2020 at 6:42am
Dear Graham,
   In the name of forest for the trees and all that, I feel it timely to point out that your electronics sound wonderful. Measurements are good for telling you what you got wrong, but after that it’s down to years of musical and engineering experience. Does it sound good? Does it do so consistently? Aren’t they the final questions?
Measurements also aren’t objective, because they need to be interpreted in a particular context. It’s why websites like audio science review are so off the mark. They make assumptions that are plain wrong. Your writing about PROCESS is such a wonderful example of why measurements are so misleading. 
Your electronics sound wonderful. If you don’t think it’s good enough, it isn’t. If you think it’s good, it is.
Mick,
Rega RP8 - Apheta 2 - Accession MC Enigma PS -Solo ULDE (Focal Utopia) - PS Audio M700 - Fical Kanta No2
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sylvain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2020 at 5:08pm
Yes indeed .........No CAD (Computer Aided Design) with Graham to time for stylying for market, gel or brylcream and knobs with diodes lights......But for care of the signal path and reliable authentic veuve of the music ,,,,,that is why I stick around your Forum. My 'Proprius' more than tick all the boxes and whilst speakers are now sold with built-in various designs of Class D or T or Z amp module ...creating an AMP to replicate music is an aural art and science indeed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 2020 at 4:28pm
Let us now consider the role of ground wires in amplifier stability.

One inch of 32/0.2 1mm^2 wire, which is capable of handling the current, has an inductance of around 20nH. We could increase the thickness considerably, but that would not reduce the inductance by much.

To get from the central big smoother capacitor negative terminal to the amplifier grounds, which are either end of the case, requires wire lengths 7 inches long. The inductance of those wires is approximately 140nH (nano Henries).

Having pushed the amplifier to the edge of stability, to obtain more high-frequency negative feedback, to reduce mid-frequency distortion (harshness), the inductance in the ground wires could push it into the risky region of fewer than 45 degrees phase-margin.

The two grounds: one to the output stage, and one to the voltage stage, are obviously separated by this 140nH inductance. The grounds become ineffective above some high frequency.

One solution is quite apparent that the compensation capacitors need to be made larger in value. That is to say, just that little bit larger to force the phase margin a decent amount above 45 degrees.

Another method which I'm not too fond of is to resistively join the two grounds at the circuit board. This method was used by the Dinsdale and Quad 303 power amplifiers, which were not "star earthed." The resistive tie of only a few ohms made for reduced stereo distortion but increased central image distortion. A value of 10 ohms was suggested by E M Cherry even with separated grounds.

I made the decision to slightly increase compensation, losing 2-3dB of 20kHz NFB. A simulation showed a return to a larger phase-margin, if only in the '50s of degrees.

Whether or not I should use the tie resistor will be something I will need to consider if upper-mid distortion arises again.

At present, I am using the switched-mode power supplies, with individual dummy loads that have brought their resonating noise down to almost inaudible. The S/N isn't as good due to the prototype placement of components, but I feel this will be remedied with proper separation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2020 at 1:15pm
The age old AM transmitter feed quandry: Stereo cannot be made mono because a+b/2 doubles the power of mono signals existant in stereo compared with stereo difference signals (a-b/2 cancels).

The only way to make stereo mono is to mix the channels 90 degrees out of phase, which might be done by grouping all-pass filters such that the result is

0.7(cos 45 (a+b))

I only knew of Studer who made a True Mono circuit.

You might ask "so what's that got to do with the price of eggs?"

My answer is, maybe a lot or maybe a little. It all depends on where the gremlins live.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2020 at 1:29pm
These being thoughts, why would the Quad 303 use a "hum breaking resistor (HBR)" rather than a Decca star earth?

HBR doesn't explain what the resistor does, but you can get an idea from Googled pages about hum breaking resistors.

Dinsdale offered the same solution but Decca's Mr Artus offered a more elegant solution which just cost wire. Dinsdale admitted the HBR resulted in distorted mono signals (mono signals can appear in stereo - they are the centre image).

In the days of the 303, stereo was more "ping-pong" than it is today, and probably it was more important to reduce stereo loop distortion than pay attention to mono distortion.

Decca's star earth answered both problems, but does it still stand up to scrutiny today?

I will leave you with my latest headscratch diagram.

Artus, Dinsdale, Quad 303 ground quandary




Edited by Graham Slee - 07 Dec 2020 at 1:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2020 at 8:40pm
As explained a few posts ago, the ground connection wires or PCB tracks' inductance narrows the phase margin, which must be compensated for.

It was noticed that the addition of a resistive connection between output and input stage grounds also helped the phase margin.

This gave rise to the last image showing where the inductances are.

The image below shows the phase plot using different values of resistance connecting the ground ends.

Bear in mind that Dinsdale's value to decouple the input and output stages to avoid stereo loop distortion (10R) resulted in more significant mono distortion, albeit a different grounding method. A smaller value might still result in more mono distortion (see Quad 303 schematic available online).

The "head scratch" is about how to correlate everything to determine the correct value of resistance.

The plot shows various resistance values, and up to a value of 270R, the phase continues to fall. From 272R and above, the phase reverses and then switches back. Usually, phase changing direction indicates a problem. However, this takes place well-beyond the usual location of the issues.

Audibly, the 100R value led to an improvement in sibilant sounds. Sibilant harmonics at 70MHz are significantly above audible frequencies if they occur at all. But a value of 33R did not audibly help sibilance.

I know plenty who will scoff at this, but I don't care, and I know what I hear, and it is a historical problem, so far not acceptably answered.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2020 at 8:05am
For the benefit of any skim-readers whose eyes might have photographically harvested "Sibilant harmonics at 70MHz", I do hope you take it in the context you should have done.

Anybody spouting-off that Graham Slee claims to have heard 70MHz will be sent packing!

Harmonics of sibilance are a significant problem in audio work of any kind and can ruin the concentration and enjoyment of a piece of music.

Very often, the lack of vocal control of a singer, even a temporary slip, can result in a clipped signal in the recording, along with its shower of harmonics. The recording engineer will always do his/her best to minimise the impact.

The amplifier and all other components in the "signal path" must also do their bit. It is here where power amplifiers seem to have their most significant problem.

It is no good working on the assumption that reducing all forms of distortion below a particular threshold will result in the banishment of the evils of sibilance. The sibilant shower of harmonic distortion lasts longer than the vocalists slip and represents a form of chaos.

We are not dealing with mono. Pieces of harmonics are contained in each channel, perhaps more to one than the other. Current is being drawn through inductive conductors from a source and is returning to that source through the similarly inductive ground conductors. The designer has to see all this in slow motion through the mind's eye and compare it with his knowledge, and sometimes that knowledge is incomplete!

Knowledge is gained through dissemination from those who have traveled the road before. If they skimmed over the subject or ignored it completely, it is up to us to either glean knowledge or "chalk chuff under it."
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