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1970s Design Indulgence

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2019 at 7:59am
Originally posted by Dave Friday Dave Friday wrote:

In the early 80s I had a NAD3020 at home for a few days...
It didn't do anything nasty but seemed a bit flat and lacking power compared to my Goodmans 110 tuneramp.



Barry; remember the press going on and on about identically specified amplifiers sounding different?

I think it calls into question the way amplifiers are measured. A bit like Python's Mr Parslow; they tell us nothing.

I've had access to five different respected audio analysers over the years, two of which I still have, and the best that can really be measured has to be accompanied by the statement "typical" and that's because we're always measuring a moving target: circuits fidget and except for say a heavily filtered DC signal from some form of instrumentation, they always will.

When some latitude is allowed by the tester the written results are "typical worst case" and unsurprisingly have little difference from other designs.

What is different however is the designer's idea for the circuit, and looking at the One-Ten circuit, and then looking at the circuits of competing products of the day, it will be found that there is a world of difference between them.

So yes, the non-technical press is right about identically specified amplifiers sounding different. And often, the ones they choose aren't what we like to listen with.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2019 at 8:08pm
Here's a thing: the fuse cold resistance is specified as 0.027 ohms.

It is followed by a 4700uF cap to ground and both power and voltage stages are supplied from there.

The pole set by 0.027 ohms and 4700uF is at 1.35 kHz.

Taking the voltage stage supply to the input side of the fuse removes that pole so it cannot feed back via the power supply.

How it behaves if the fuse blows I have yet to fathom.

I noticed a number of early 70s Japanese amplifiers are thus configured.

I have reinstated the bootstrap.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2019 at 9:01pm
A few tweaks later...

35 WPC at 0.1% THD (20Hz - 20kHz).

Hoping to reach 40 WPC.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 10:16am
I think I might have tracked down the problem. My mistake seems to have been because I was taken-in by thinking Dinsdale's Wireless World configuration was representative of amplifiers of the era. There is a subtle difference however - the Dinsdale voltage amplifier is DC coupled - similar commercial amplifiers are not!

It isn't the DC coupling as such, but the consequence. That being the limited voltage swing it imposes on T1.

It is not that I hadn't noticed that commercial versions are capacitor coupled - I've mentioned the Teleton (Mitsubishi) SAQ-206B on quite a few occasions - and I had noticed the Leak Stereo 30 was likewise connected (Dinsdale having accused Leak of plagiarism - it would seem falsely now).

So how does this affect things? I would guess the limited collector emitter voltage DC coupling imposes on T1 limits its transient overload capacity. Going back to Otala's AES paper he found that increasing collector-emitter voltage lessened this distortion.

Steady state and with negative feedback applied it might seem there is not a problem as the transistor only swings input signal divided by loop gain. The collector-emitter voltage can easily handle this and has a considerable margin.

However, Otala looked at what can neatly be described as propagation delay, although he never mentioned it like that, but anyone who has also worked in digital electronics will be able to see the analogy.

Should the signal race the NFB then T1 will amplify the full input signal by whatever its T2 loaded gain is. I have tried to make T1 collector-emitter voltage as large as possible but it is still only around 3.5 volts. With an input of say 900mV rms, nearly 1.3V peak, T1 doesn't need much gain to clip.

It must be understood that this will not happen steady-state with a sine wave signal, or low frequency audio program, but as we know, music is a different creature.

I have used local negative feedback to mitigate this, but I still need open-loop gain a factor of 5 more than closed-loop to lower output stage distortion.

T1 however, only needs a gain of 2.5 to reach its limit, which suggests I need to lower NFB to match, but in doing so; output stage distortion will be allowed to climb.

The commercial capacitor coupled versions operated with larger C-E voltages, and in the SAQ-206B it was 8 volts. The sensitivity was such that the input signal was lower to start with, thus the transient overload capabilities were much better.

In a DC coupled voltage amplifier stage T2's base voltage is T1's collector voltage. In a capacitor coupled voltage amplifier, the capacitor allows these two voltages to be different.

By adopting the biasing afforded by T2's emitter, which requires a greater sacrifice of available output voltage, I have at least ensured T1 collector-emitter voltage is greater than Dinsdale's paltry 0.9V, but then again, Dinsdale's input sensitivity is much higher - the input voltage lower.

So, how could T1's collector voltage be increased without changing T2's base voltage? The capacitor coupling could only be used here provided separate DC biasing is used for T1 and T2, this requiring a whole new layout, it cannot be easily tacked on.

A resistor bypassed capacitor might work. The resistor provides the "give" to allow for a DC level change whilst the capacitor acts as a low (think no) impedance connection. We must also reduce T1 collector load resistance for its collector to assume a new higher voltage.

This, if it were to work, would be the very last tweak possible before having to commit to a major redesign.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 11:48am
The first calculation we must do for a resistor bypassed capacitor level translator is the initial leakage current of the capacitor.

The base of T2 draws Ie/beta mA, and if Ie is 6mA and beta is 150 then base current is 40uA.

From the leakage formula (it will be an electrolytic) 0.01CV + 3 (uA) we find that for 40uA and using my preferred 100V rating, the maximum value is 37uF. In fact that will probably take far too long to charge and ought to be something like 22uF or 10uF, and if 10uF the chances are it is going to be 100V anyway.

Zin of T2 is beta x (ac) Re ((ac) Re + re), and we have a 39 ohm resistor (now) for R15 (page 73). The value of re is the thermal voltage divided by emitter current which is 4.3 ohms, and so Re + re = 43.3 ohms. Zin is therefore 43.3 x 150 (beta) which is 6.5 k ohms.

10uF will cause LF cut from 2.5Hz and 22uF cut from just over 1Hz, and so neither should be a cause for concern over LF phase.

Next up is to calculate the resistor value for the required voltage drop, and then simulate it to find if the calculations agree.






Edited by Graham Slee - 15 Aug 2019 at 11:49am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave Friday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 12:55pm
Hi Graham,I vaguely remember the "why do amps sound different when they have the same spec " but what stuck in my mind was the hifi press saying how good the NAD3020 was at driving "difficult " speakers ( low impedance dips etc )I understand the biasing problem (t1/t2)!
It's a pity you can't use one of your disc amps for the voltage swing and stick a power amp on the end of it?! But then it wouldn't be a "70s" design.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 3:24pm
The NAD3020 didn't have any protection circuit, or should I say, I cannot see anything in its circuit that looks like a protection circuit - I could be wrong - and so it would not current limit (except for the transformer output being pulled down).

It had 2N3055/2955 output transistors, and I found my quasi-2N3055 cap coupled amplifiers would take a direct short (running loud in my then room, at around 5 watts plus transients) and still live.

I have always thought the importance of the impedance droop test a bit overblown.

Paul Kemble's view (http://www.angelfire.com/sd/paulkemble/sound5h.html) goes like this:

"The NAD 3020, popular with 'audiophiles' possibly because of its 19" rack mount case which laid the rear connectors flat so that access from the front was easier (reminiscent of the '70s Pioneer SX series of tuner/amps) and LED output indicator, relied on a common and slow output pair and made interesting claims in it's brochure that could make one smile. For example, the supply is described as 'high-voltage' and 'high-current', although being unexceptional and normal for a low power amplifier... Intended as 'a no-frills moderately-priced amplifier, it met most needs and it is felt that the clamour and attention given in some quarters was unnecessary."
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